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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:20 am 
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Send your Baroque objection to tpbpd@pland.gov.hk


Info here from Martin Williams of hkoutdoors.com and Living Seas:

The Baroque on Lamma development, hasn't died. The developer has made yet another submission to the Town Planning Board, we really need to stop this one before it is too late. A quick summary:

1. Huge property and marina development on the South Side of Lamma, right next to the last remaining green turtle nesting beach in HK and encompassing important terrestrial ecosystems, that support indigenous species such as Romers Tree Frog.

2. The developer is applying for rezone from "Agriculture", "Conservation Area", "Coastal Protection Area" zones to "Comprehensive Development Area"

3. The developer has amended their plans, to incorporate certain mitigation approaches, however it is just green washing, this is not a suitable site..

4. 14th October is a deadline for sending in responses and comments to the Town planning board. I invite you all to submit comments and to show your objections to the plan. Our email, which we sent to the following email address "tpbpd@pland.gov.hk", can be found at the end of this note.

Please feel free to use this, please do edit it, as I have noticed a couple of TYPOS..!

You can find out more on the application at the following website http://www.info.gov.hk/tpb/en/plan_appl ... -LI_1.html

Your help on this is much appreciated.

Regards
Dod
Chairman
Living Seas Hong Kong

"On behalf of Living Seas HK, we are writing to object to the development on Lamma as proposed by the project proponent on the basis of insufficient evidence that coral communities will not be affected and also that the construction and ongoing increase in boat traffic in the areas will cause willful disturbance to the marine turtle nesting beach at Shum Wan.

In Hong Kong established coral communities of any size are regarded as important habitat types in Hong Kong as defined in Annex 8 of EIAO-TM.

There is evidence to suggest that coral communities exist in Tung O wan and along the Ngai Tau Headland and that neither the EIA or any recent memorandums show the extent of coral loss, mitigation or any attempts to translocate corals in order to protect these species.

The beach at Sham Wan, Lamma is the last remaining nesting beach for the endangered and protected green turtle (Chelonia mydas) in Hong Kong waters. This species and the Sham Wan nesting beach is protected under the Wild Animals Protection Ordinance (Chapter 170) Under the ordinance it is illegal to willfully ?disturb a nest or egg of any protected wild animal?. The construction process, increased lights and increased boat
traffic will willfully disturb these protected animals from nesting.

On these grounds Living Seas HK object to the development named as Baroque."

Email I've sent:


I write to again object to the plans for the Baroque on Lamma.

The area of and near the proposed project is of considerable conservation, scenic and leisure value, and should be protected overall (not just SSSI here, and some slight protection there).
It is quite wrong for a project like this, which is aimed squarely at benefitting developers, not at all for the good of Hong Kong.

Marine life will suffer, including coral communities and nesting turtles.
Hong Kong people will suffer yet more destruction of their home, removing a place that can benefit the majority of people both now and long into the future.

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 Post subject: the baroque on lamma
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:54 pm 
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Marc Antony wrote:
Marine life will suffer, including coral communities and nesting turtles.
Hong Kong people will suffer yet more destruction of their home, removing a place that can benefit the majority of people both now and long into the future.


Dear Marc Antony,
I do have a different view point, that’s why I am for the project of the Baroque on Lamma and I also emaild to the same gov.addresse as above shown.

Marin life is suffering enormously already, only take a trip to Macao and half way there you can see the dirty waters from the mainstreams of the Pearl River Delta encroaching Macao some other Islands and coming nearer to Lamma .

That’s why the turtles are not coming back to Lamma .Not only the Marine Live is threatened from this dirty water , all our life is too.

The Baroque on Lamma will attract people from the Mainland and the project with its organic research centre and plant nursery will have its repercussion in the visitors homes and province,it will help to reintroduce plants trees and shrubs forgotten since the opium war and its devastating effect on farms also on Lamma till now.

Lamma could produce a great portion of Hong Kongs supply of vegetable and protein cheaply, that will count after oil prices start climbing, the population on earth will be 7 billion people this month and food prices will further explode soon.
Get Goats and Sheep back to the Islands Mountain tops for healthy organic protein! Make Lamma a showcase for China and enhance a healthier future, there is no time left, start now!!!!!

.The planned education centre at Baroquet will teach why people left everything behind for opium. The new young students don’t even know there were Fig trees on the Island or Citrus trees actually started there existence here in this area thousands of years ago.
Now I don’t see nor find only one good tasting Orange tree on Lamma.There are Chinese Olive Trees in existance and there are Coffee Bushes since 2000 years in the South China See, were are they on Lamma to make the Children of southern China proud of there heritage. Its all destroyed by greed to make the quick bucks and nobody tells the Children of China that there Country only 200 Years ago was the greatest country one could find on this planet, with a GDP as high as that of the rest of the world combined.

Greed must not prevail,coming this time in the coat of environmentalists who think they know everything better.
Therefore Lamma Islanders should be happy and welcoming the ideas of the Baroque.It will be a milestone for environmental protection reintroducing farming, plants and animals, bringing farming work back as well as mor maintenance and service with its 900 planed and secluded properties ,a outstanding showcase desperately needed for the future of the South China See as well as helping to back up planners on the Mainland for a greener and cleaner development in the surrounding area and China . After a while with cleaner water in the see you will find marine and human life striving, the green Turtles will come back and in addition you will have excellent locally produced food and perhaps know by then how great the benefit is the Baroque project is bringing to all life on Lamma Island.


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 Post subject: Re: the baroque on lamma
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:37 pm 
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ewald wrote:
Therefore Lamma Islanders should be happy and welcoming the ideas of the Baroque.It will be a milestone for environmental protection reintroducing farming, plants and animals


Do you seriously believe any of that bollocks?

Baroque is simply an expensive residential real estate development. Nothing more. The Tannery flats but bigger and even more of a failure if they ever went ahead. It's just a scam to sucker mainland investors (as no one in HK would be dumb enough to buy in)

All the rest is pure greenwash and will never be funded or built.
They're not going to host the America's cup yacht race and they're not going to "reintroduce farming and plants and animals". They're going to cover it in concrete.

Actually, as at least some of the land is already zoned for agriculture they could do all that now without any problem. It's 900 flats that they want to build, not model farms.


Last edited by Alan on Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: the baroque on lamma
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:39 pm 
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ewald wrote:
Lamma Islanders should be happy and welcoming the ideas of the Baroque.It will be a milestone for environmental protection reintroducing farming, plants and animals, bringing farming work back as well as mor maintenance and service with its 900 planed and secluded properties ,a outstanding showcase desperately needed for the future of the South China See as well as helping to back up planners on the Mainland for a greener and cleaner development in the surrounding area and China . After a while with cleaner water in the see you will find marine and human life striving, the green Turtles will come back and in addition you will have excellent locally produced food and perhaps know by then how great the benefit is the Baroque project is bringing to all life on Lamma Island.


Ha ha - and pigs might fly. Ewald, have you lifted this from the Baroque's publicity material?

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 Post subject: Re: the baroque on lamma
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:30 pm 
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no point in talking to this person, so I've removed my comment.


Last edited by okuko on Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: the baroque on lamma
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:15 pm 
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Alan wrote:
Baroque is simply an expensive residential real estate development. Nothing more.
All the rest is pure greenwash and will never be funded or built.
They're not going to host the America's cup yacht race and they're not going to "reintroduce farming and plants and animals". They're going to cover it in concrete.



The only two times I have been cheated in property deals was in Germany and by the property developing company of the Queen of England regarding my premises on Kensington High Street.
With the law in Germany I had no chance, in London we took the case to the High Court incuring great expenses for paying a Barrister and myself taking two years out of my job to prepare the case.
As of my 8 Years in China I have only met the most honorable people, in private and in business . Although my experience is very limited only to the province of Shandong and Shanghai.
Why can't the promises the developer of the Baroqu is giving,not been drafted into the deeds of a building permission?


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 Post subject: Re: the baroque on lamma
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:26 pm 
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okuko wrote:
Woah! Ewald. I really hope you're a troll.


perhaps you have been called a troll too many times before and disquallifyed because your lacking arguments? who knows?


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 Post subject: Re: the baroque on lamma
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:04 am 
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Marc Antony wrote:

Ha ha - and pigs might fly. Ewald, have you lifted this from the Baroque's publicity material?



In this Economist Chart on 7th July 2011,the Hong Kong Hous Prices are 63.7% overvalueded
and HK is leading the World in overcharging for Housing

http://www.economist.com/node/18925999

The Mainland is best balanced of all Emerging Market Economies as the Chart shows and that’s not coming out of nowher,it’s the Chinese Politition and there planers who do this excellent job for the people of China and HK should open its eyes and respect that! Therefore I would be more than happy to welcome the expertise coming from the Mainland in this respect. As not to loose out to the Mainland completely, Hong Kong still has something, with its clean drinkable water and environmental expertise and a well educated population, an offer from HK and it should go for it and back the Baroque developers rightout. This chance will not come many times back to Lamma. After the US are out of Chinese waters,the sooner the better and peace will be back to all of Asia, Taiwan and Fujian have plenty of Islands to offer to planners and property developers.
Needless to point out the housing stock in HK and how bad it is against the new quality buildings on the Mainland....


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:14 am 
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ewald, you are either delusional or working for The Baroque.

How could thousands of residents (if we believe that somebody will buy those flats) and hundreds of yachts improve marine life and make Tung O greener???

If the Baroque proponents really cared for the environment they would buy brown land and turn it into a green oasis, they would have my support.

Cutting down trees, excavating the hills to build apartments and all the infrastructure needed, dredging the seabed, and introducing cars and carparks to a car-free island is definitely not an "environmental" project. Just another real estate speculation, where farm land is bought cheaply and its value increased by changing its zoning.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:21 am 
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Thanks foreign body, my sentiments exactly.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It is a waste of your time, and it annoys the pig.
and that's what I'm thinking right now.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:28 am 
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Ewald, you are of course entitled to your own opinion, but I'm a tad concerned that you are a bit delusional.

Do you really believe that the Baroque on South Lamma, will do all the great things for the environment that they say they will? Do you honestly believe all that? Take a look around you. The environment and quality of living are declining, and the Baroque is all about greed and concrete, so it's hardly going to help everyone.

Nature, goats, chickens, etc.. will be no part of this. Although they may plant fig trees, who knows.

I found it quite worrying reading your post. You seem to be 'out of touch' as to what Lamma residents need or want.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:55 am 
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Ewald, those demons at Baroque must have fed you some good stuff. If you see that man again,

Beware! Beware!
His flashing eyes, his floating hair!
Weave a circle round him thrice,
And close your eyes with holy dread,
For he on honey-dew hath fed,
And drunk the milk of Paradise.

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 Post subject: the baroque on lamma
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:31 am 
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foreign body wrote:
ewald, you are either delusional or working for The Baroque.

How could thousands of residents (if we believe that somebody will buy those flats) and hundreds of yachts improve marine life and make Tung O greener???


go to inspect Sardinia, there you see how much benefit the new development brought- there you can also see at the other half of Sardinia who rejected the idea how poor the still are
foreign body wrote:
If the Baroque proponents really cared for the environment they would buy brown land and turn it into a green oasis, they would have my support.


if they are out to make quick money they would not invest in HK at the top of the boom with prices according to my chart posted to Marc 63% higher and over the to-the whole world knows that.
foreign body wrote:
Cutting down trees,

there are perhaps one ore two trees I have overseen, perhaps shrubs, regarding to the plan they are going to reintroduce trees ...
foreign body wrote:
excavating the hills to build apartments and all the infrastructure needed, dredging the seabed, and introducing cars and carparks to a car-free island is definitely not an "environmental" project. Just another real estate speculation, where farm land is bought cheaply and its value increased by changing its zoning.

There are no roads on Lamma,so that is a point perhaps to have a discussion, perhaps they only using duplicated plans with car parks drawn already, but that’s a point!
The rest you’re quoting does not hold up!


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 Post subject: baroque on lamma
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:17 pm 
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Tigger wrote:
Ewald, you are of course entitled to your own opinion, but I'm a tad concerned that you are a bit delusional.

Thanks,my own opinion would be respected on the Mailand,but here I have to be happy not to be called a troll by a spoiled child
Tigger wrote:
Do you really believe that the Baroque on South Lamma, will do all the great things for the environment that they say they will? Do you honestly believe all that? Take a look around you. The environment and quality of living are declining, and the Baroque is all about greed and concrete, so it's hardly going to help everyone.


All they promisse can be put in a deed connected to the permission to build,there I don’t think is a problem and also if they would want to make a qiuck profit,they would not buy the land and aply for building permission when the market is at its top.All speculators think that HK property market is going to burst soon…
Tigger wrote:

Nature, goats, chickens, etc.. will be no part of this. Although they may plant fig trees, who knows.

You got that wrong,they are going to reintroduce plants and trees belonging to the rich heritage of this land. Fig trees are already here,only not many people know that…
Tigger wrote:

I found it quite worrying reading your post. You seem to be 'out of touch' as to what Lamma residents need or want.


I find it worrying when I read the responds to my post, most of foreign Lamma residents only come to Lamma daily by Ferry to sleep and go to HK next morning to work, they are therefore the bigest polluters and covering up as environmentalists not knowing what the Indigineos Lamma people really need.
Perhaps work creation with a Building Site first and after this Hotels, Restaurants and a Marina, also servicing the Flats and the Complex etc. would bring money into there accounts.Perhaps its greed of this foreign residents, they don’t want the Lammites to be better of with good jobs and better housing, they need poor people around that makes them feel better .


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:29 pm 
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Ewald,
go and tell that to the Sardinians who saw their beautiful costa smeralda taken over by Prince Karim Aga Khan in 1961!

I concede that in the Sixties there was no mass tourism in the area and the millionaires who bought villas and moored their yachts there could enjoy a fairly pristine environment.

And yet not all was good, if you scratched the glittery surface you found endemic poverty, resentment, a separatist movement that was gaining strength, and dozens of kidnappings. As Sardinian farmers and shepherds realised that there was no trickle down effect (Costa Smeralda elite tourism didn't benefit them) they started to burn down villas, and kidnap wealthy holiday makers.
If you can read Italian http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonima_sarda
It offers a list of kidnappings and then you can see how happy Sardinians were!

Fast forward a few decades, and now the sea is no longer emerald green, the hills have been concreted over, the coast defaced by too many hotels and villas, and peace is lost to private jets, helicopters, SUVs, monster yachts, motor boats...at night Eastern European prostitutes try to lure men, mostly Russian tycoons and Italian mafiosi who spend a fortune in the Sardinian version of Wanchai. it's basically hell. This is also the place that has become notorious for the infamous bunga bunga parties hosted by Berlusconi.

I went to Costa Smeralda in the early Eighties and in order to find a nice beach and some peace i had to rent a scooter and ride for an hour! Now i wouldn't want to go there even if all my expenses were paid. I'd rather leave that hell to the new rich with no taste who buy overpriced champagne and designer clothes in Costa Smeralda.

Italians looking for a nice beach and clean sea don't go to Costa Smeralda...and having lived in Italy for 30 years i know what i am talking about.


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 Post subject: the baroque on lamma
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:04 pm 
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foreign body wrote:
Ewald,
go and tell that to the Sardinians who saw their beautiful costa smeralda taken .


Tell us about the good things the tourist development has brought to Sardinia.
I remember in the early seventies that some old houses had no toilets and no water and the young went to work abroad, no money and no job in Sardinia.
The Baroque will only be a small place; I had the statistical increase of the income of the Sards,the now better housing standard etc. in mind and not the bunga bunga you'r reporting taking part there...


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:28 pm 
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"In the early Seventies some old houses had no toilets and no water"..true, and that applies to a lot of farmhouses in other parts of Italy, they had wells and collected rain water.
But tell me, what did Aga Khan and the other developers do for THEM? Water is a scarce resource in Sardinia and it's now being used for swimming pools, lush gardens, golf courses etc. with the result that ordinary Sardinians have their water rationed and can't even take a shower !
How sustainable is that???

BTW Sardinians are still migrating, work on the mainland or go abroad, because in Sardinia they can only find low pay summer jobs as waiters, barmen, cooks, cleaners, chauffeurs in that playground for the rich called Costa Smeralda. That's no economic miracle, if you ask me.


Last edited by foreign body on Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: baroque on lamma
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:37 pm 
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ewald wrote:
All they promisse can be put in a deed connected to the permission to build,there I don’t think is a problem and also if they would want to make a qiuck profit,they would not buy the land and aply for building permission when the market is at its top.All speculators think that HK property market is going to burst soon…

They've been buying up the land for 10 years or more. They paid peanuts for agricultural land and now they're trying to have it converted to residential and reap a huge windfall (they hope) and cash in on the "peaking market".

ewald wrote:
Perhaps its greed of this foreign residents,
they don’t want the Lammites to be better of with good jobs and better housing, they need poor people around that makes them feel better .


Your outdated racist attitudes belie belief.
Have you just been released from being brainwashed at a Cultural Revolution labour camp?

There are plenty of poor foreigners on Lamma, so I hope that makes you feel better. The people commenting in this English language forum are naturally mostly foreigners.
The 1100 objections lodged against the BOL proposal were not.

See http://www.facebook.com/groups/greenlammagroup/
http://www.facebook.com/damonwcp


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:51 pm 
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Ewald, good jobs and better housing???
yeah right, maybe as cleaners or in construction, while it lasts. Unless you are a skilled worker, and speak 3 languages you won't get a job at the Marina, nor in the fancy plaza. As to better housing, can the poor afford to buy The Baroque luxury flats? Do they need berthing facilities for yachts they will never buy?
BTW, in Costa Smeralda a lot of bar and restaurant jobs go to Eastern European immigrants because they can speak some Russian!


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 Post subject: Re: baroque on lamma
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:17 pm 
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Alan wrote:
Your outdated racist attitudes belie belief.
Have you just been released from being brainwashed at a Cultural Revolution labour camp?



The biggest polluter on the Island is those using the Ferry on a daily base, that’s 90% foreigners working in HK. If you need to be brainwashed in a Cultural Revolution labour camp to see the correlations, that’s fine with me, perhaps when you come back you agree.
As of the poor, China had the biggest GDP on earth before it got colonized and plundered.
Now it’s not a Colony anymore and about time it gets its place back in the world and if you want to know who the racists are, it’s exactly the people who deny this to China….


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