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 Post subject: Life jackets
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:26 am 
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Just as an observation how come the Sea Serene doesn't have lift jackets in the sitting out area outside? There is a sign that says Adult life jackets are stored in the passenger cabins, but where?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:13 am 
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Also on the smaller ferries I was thinking how ppl could escape in a hurry if the ferry was going down.

If exits were blocked or overcrowded:
look for the fire extinguisher and use it to smash out the windows!

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:39 am 
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The Aberdeen ferry now has a big new sign in red characters identifying the location of life jackets but unfortunately nothing in English. :shock:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:41 pm 
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ilanmangi wrote:
If exits were blocked or overcrowded:
look for the fire extinguisher and use it to smash out the windows!

A friend sent me a photo of a "Car Emergency Hammer" yesterday - worried about how to escape from an inside cabin. The small hammer is specially designed to break very tough windows like the ones on the ferries.

It's even got a cutter to slice through very tough seatbelts, for example after a taxi crash, a much more likely danger in HK than a ferry crash...

Will we see many Lammaites carry one of these with them on the ferries, maybe dangling visibly from their belts? Only $20 from Wanchai, my friend offered to organise a bulk order....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:14 pm 
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Lamma-Gung wrote:
A friend sent me a photo of a "Car Emergency Hammer" yesterday - worried about how to escape from an inside cabin. The small hammer is specially designed to break very tough windows like the ones on the ferries.


Buses often have such hammers fixed next to windows.
Hopefully the glass is safety glass otherwise you'd be likely to slice yourself up trying to get out.

Anyway, according to this story they did break them to get people out :
SCMP wrote:
Lamma IV passengers 'buried' under falling debris
Detached seats and fallen ceiling panels trapped passengers on the upper deck of the doomed cruiser Lamma IV after it collided with a ferry, turning the cabin into an underwater grave for more than 20 people.

As well as falling on the victims, the debris blocked the only exit from the cabin.

This emerged yesterday as the search for bodies went on and fire services officers checked the wrecked vessel, beached at Nga Kau Wan on Lamma Island.

"Seats broke off from their fixtures and fibreboards dropped from the ceiling," a government source said. "Debris slid on to the victims and buried them."

The victims rolled to the rear end of the upper-deck cabin when the 24-metre boat sank vertically to a depth of 15 metres with only its bow above the surface.

Rescuers had to break windows to pull survivors out of the cabin.


I heard some idiotic district councillor saying that lifejackets should be compulsory to wear on ferries. it's obviously impractical and in cases like this would have killed more people, making it harder for them to get out. The victims were trapped and drowned by debris when the ferry was upturned. If they could get out in one piece they should have been okay.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:23 pm 
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Don't know if anyone has noticed, but the upper deck of the Star Ferry doesn't have life jackets.

Last year I was on the ferry to TST any my friend (who speaks much better Chinese than I) asked where the life jackets were, and was told they were all on the bottom deck. There is only a tiny door from the upper deck to the lower deck.

Not very helpful in an emergency.

But it has been like this for years, and apparently it must be OK, as they have had their licenses renewed, etc...

Shocking.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:55 pm 
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Tigger wrote:
Don't know if anyone has noticed, but the upper deck of the Star Ferry doesn't have life jackets.

Last year I was on the ferry to TST any my friend (who speaks much better Chinese than I) asked where the life jackets were, and was told they were all on the bottom deck. There is only a tiny door from the upper deck to the lower deck.

Not very helpful in an emergency.

But it has been like this for years, and apparently it must be OK, as they have had their licenses renewed, etc...

Shocking.


There are a lot of life rings & "rafts" (like a BIG life ring really) ON TOP of the Star ferries. Of course, they are tied on, so if the boat went down fast they would not be of much help!

HKKF ferry was running announcements last nite on the way home, didn't one of them say something like "Tampering with safety equipment $5000 fine"? Is this to mean you cant check the life jackets yourself, I mean for your own info how to use?

I read on the other thread about a woman who took her young children on the ferry the day after the disaster and was chastised by crew for teaching her kids how to use the life jackets. And some of the eyewitness reports said they got no direction from the HKKF crew declaring an emergency or telling them to put on life jackets. Does that mean $5000 fine for them all?

Also, I can't agree that life jackets would have caused a greater loss in this incident as previous poster said. I haven't seen anything that said "ALL" the casualties were trapped inside. Even then, you can take a life jacket in your hand and escape with it. When people wind up in the water unexpectedly and with clothes on even 20 minutes in this warm water will result in drownings.

I know that when rescue authorities show up to mayday calls that 80% or more of the time the passengers ARE NOT wearing life jackets, even though they called for help!!!!! ALMOST ALL DROWNING OCCURS without life jackets on. Only a small % of people drown while wearing a life jacket. Having a life jacket on greatly increases your chance of survival, no matter how close to shore, or how warm the water!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:30 pm 
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PNWxplant wrote:
Having a life jacket on greatly increases your chance of survival, no matter how close to shore, or how warm the water!


Yeah, if you can get it on and get out of the cabin before the boat sinks.

It's not a choice between floating with a jacket or without, obviously a jacket is better. Getting out of a sinking boat in one piece is the priority.
Should you try to find and put on a jacket in an upside down cabin in the dark while it's filling up with water?
And a big bulky vest is great to keep you afloat but a huge impediment if you're climbing through wreckage and out a porthole.

The life vests on the ferries are there to satisfy the letter of the law. They're stowed away and tied up and impossible to use in a real emergency.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:43 pm 
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Alan wrote:
PNWxplant wrote:
Having a life jacket on greatly increases your chance of survival, no matter how close to shore, or how warm the water!


Yeah, if you can get it on and get out of the cabin before the boat sinks.

It's not a choice between floating with a jacket or without, obviously a jacket is better. Getting out of a sinking boat in one piece is the priority.
Should you try to find and put on a jacket in an upside down cabin in the dark while it's filling up with water?
And a big bulky vest is great to keep you afloat but a huge impediment if you're climbing through wreckage and out a porthole.

The life vests on the ferries are there to satisfy the letter of the law. They're stowed away and tied up and impossible to use in a real emergency.


I don't think that means that we should just say - "Oh, F' the life jackets" Do you really think they are "impossible to use" ?

I think that one of the issues to be addressed is how/where they are stored that would make them easier to use. An accident in the middle of East Lamma Channel that gave you more time to get on a jacket and more time in the water (a very likely possibility I think) would certainly make them quite useful. and if you don't know how to swim, or weighed down in winter clothes, it wouldnt matter if you only had 5 minutes to wait for rescue without a life jacket.

I know in the US the law is that they must be "readily available"which leaves a bit of interpretation open. I was once inspected by the USCG while running a sailboat and my life jackets were in a compartment under other equipment. I was very chastised by them as, since it took 2-3 minutes to get them out, they weren't readily available. And - THEY WHERE RIGHT about that, it was dumb on my part.

Maybe more clear regulations (and enforcement) would help fix the problems you are bringing up.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:50 pm 
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PNWxplant wrote:
An accident in the middle of East Lamma Channel that gave you more time to get on a jacket


If you're on the Titanic and have time to run up and down decks two or three times while the band plays on; yes, finish your beer, update your Facebook status to "Mayday", have a fag, put on a lifejacket.

PNWxplant wrote:
Maybe more clear regulations (and enforcement) would help fix the problems you are bringing up.


I'm sure that as a result of all the enquiries and government arse covering we will get more regulations and a 10 minute recorded harangue on how to use life jackets on every trip.

We won't be any safer though. If you're on a small boat and get rammed by a big one, you go down quickly and the only thing to do is get out quickly.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:24 pm 
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Alan wrote:
PNWxplant wrote:
An accident in the middle of East Lamma Channel that gave you more time to get on a jacket


If you're on the Titanic and have time to run up and down decks two or three times while the band plays on; yes, finish your beer, update your Facebook status to "Mayday", have a fag, put on a lifejacket.

PNWxplant wrote:
Maybe more clear regulations (and enforcement) would help fix the problems you are bringing up.


I'm sure that as a result of all the enquiries and government arse covering we will get more regulations and a 10 minute recorded harangue on how to use life jackets on every trip.

We won't be any safer though. If you're on a small boat and get rammed by a big one, you go down quickly and the only thing to do is get out quickly.


I get it now. Life jackets ate pointless distractions that interfere with escape and all vessels should be identical in size. Yes yes perfect glad u showed me the light!

Hmmm...,,, I wonder what happens when two trains crash into each other? Since they are both so big I suppose it should be no big deal.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:14 pm 
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PNWxplant wrote:
I get it now. Life jackets ate pointless distractions that interfere with escape and all vessels should be identical in size. Yes yes perfect glad u showed me the light!

Hmmm...,,, I wonder what happens when two trains crash into each other? Since they are both so big I suppose it should be no big deal.


If you think I said something that idiotic, my communication skills must be severely lacking. So, let's try again:

Conservation of momentum tells you that a small body colliding with a larger will suffer larger acceleration in inverse proportion to the masses. Thus more damage. Thus more likely to sink. Is that contentious? Take it up with Isaac Newton.

Second, I think the whole topic of lifejackets is a distraction from the real issue of avoiding collisions in the first place.

It allows the government and ferry companies to blame the victims for not wearing jackets, as if it would have made a difference. Or to respond by nagging us endlessly about how to wear life jackets every time we get on a ferry. In this situation, I really doubt life jackets were a factor in the death toll.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:43 am 
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Alan wrote:
Second, I think the whole topic of lifejackets is a distraction from the real issue of avoiding collisions in the first place.


THAT I truly am in whole hearted agreement with.

From my point of view the ENTIRE PROBLEM is the careless manner in which ALL the ferry's and other locally licensed vessels are operated.

I said before that other than the local Government vessels I felt that ALL the ferry's, tugs, and cargo boats from the entire Pearl River Delta take unreasonable risk, and do not exercise due care and caution.

Everyone should start reporting ALL INCIDENTS officially to the Marine Department.

I will see if I can find on their website the report form and also what officially constitutes an "incident". And then post it here.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:03 am 
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"If you're on the Titanic and have time to run up and down decks two or three times while the band plays on; yes, finish your beer, update your Facebook status to "Mayday", have a fag, put on a lifejacket."

Classic :)


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 Post subject: Re: Life jackets
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:19 pm 
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2) LIFE JACKET

Every so often you will see life jackets that have fallen out from beneath the seats. Most of the time this is because the have been kicked out by passengers stretching their legs. Most on the time this would be simply getting comfortable after a hard days work. So here us the good news the marine department and Hkkf have assured me there are at least two visual checks of life jackets before and after each routine sailing. Not sure if this means every sailing or just at start and end of day. Nyerere is what the marine department have said....

"Spot check was carried out by MD officer in mid-April,2014 and find in order. The condition of life jackets is checked during annual survey and spot checks.
As replied by the company, there will be at least two on-board inspections before and after routine sailings. It is estimated that the life jackets might be taken out of seats or storage cabinet during scheduled sailings. Crew will store it to original position if it is placed improperly."

Even better on of the boats have kick boards to protect the life jackets from stretched out feet. Was wondering if we are going to see these kick boards on all vessels or do you think the make no difference and are a waste of time. Some of the life jackets look a bit old and moldy though. Was wondering does anyone know how often they are or should be replaced.


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 Post subject: Re: Life jackets
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:23 pm 
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they only have to be replaced if torn or holes in them or if they have somehow become waterlogged. mold and dirt are cosmetic only.


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 Post subject: Re: Life jackets
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:07 pm 
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We have adult and child life jackets on the boats and clear instructions on the pier and in the boat. Like many people the trilingual video drives me crazy at times. However i have my brother coming over at Christmas with a six month old baby was just wondering what happens with babies if we have to abandon boat. The Macau ferry has life rafts as does I have been told the star ferry. The macau ferry also has flotation cots for babies but there appears to be no cots or guidance regarding babies and infants. I do know that infant life jackets are a smaller version of child life jackets but there appears to be no infant life jackets either. Do you think the staff are trained on when to use each type of life jacket as there is no advice on the boat. I believe it is by height. Also what happens if there are more than 12 children on the boat which would not be uncommon for the school run? Having talked to some parents with babies a few do carry their own flotation cot since the sinking.

Of course there will be the same debate about how useful life jackets are and there will be scenarios where you cannot get them on fast enough. There will also be calls for us to learn how to swim which is a very sensible life skill, but anyone who has done life saving will know swimming with a full set of clothes on mid water at night is very different from a Sunday swim with the kids. Your thoughts and observations as always are appreciated.


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