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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:08 am 
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Questions from a Pak Kokian, received via Facebook message:
<OL><LI>Did the HKKF start the engine back up after the collision and were people in the water from Lamma IV at that point?
<LI>Did the HKKF throw in ant lifeboats, jackets or rings, before docking in safe harbour?
<LI>Was HKKF diverted from course (at high speed) from a junk or tug that has been first mentioned?</OL>

An update from Tannery Beach, below Lamma-1, where the HK Electric ferry has been moved to last night. Robert writes:

"Eerily, Lamma IV (FOUR- of all the numbers they could have used!) lists on the shore of Tannery beach having been hauled out earlier.
Looking at it, sections of the left side rear upper and lower decks have been sheared off, which must have been horrific for the jovial crowd who sat outside enjoying the breeze.
So if the rear left hand side of the Electric Co boat was hit by the front left hand side of HKKF, does this mean HKKF could not avoid the other boat's maneuver, or that HKKF simply did not see the other boat in time on radar, or visually?"


There's already a Wikipedia entry with most of the basic facts and dozens of links:
2012 Lamma Island boat disaster

Another 2 press releases by HK Electric, but still no word at all from HKFF.
[2 October 2012 9:00pm]
[2 October 2012 10:45am]

The SCMP mentioned in their "Heated debate online over the Hong Kong ferry tragedy" story today that there's a "Facebook page established to commemorate the victims" with 3,860 members set up yesterday. I couldn't find it. Anybody knows?


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File comment: Tannery Beach, Oct 3, 2012 - by Stephen Thompson
Stephen-Thompson-Tannery-Beach.jpg
Stephen-Thompson-Tannery-Beach.jpg [ 81.34 KiB | Viewed 2986 times ]
File comment: Lamma IV @ Tannery Beach, by Robert
Robert-Ferry-Tannery-Beach.jpg
Robert-Ferry-Tannery-Beach.jpg [ 42.91 KiB | Viewed 2986 times ]

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:54 am 
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According to the papers I read this morning, there is no 'passenger list' for the stricken ferry.

As for Yui Lai Fan....... her response.. she has asked the Government to carry out a 'safety assessment for the Ferry Pier area'!!

I'm trying not to jump to conclusions that this tragedy will give ammunition to her calls for a bicycle area.

Does anyone know if the emergency services were blocked from getting to the pier (although I'm sure hundreds of tourists on the pier would have been an impediment.)

Also wondering why HKKF haven't updated their web page since August? Or is this just the English language page.


Last edited by Tigger on Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:56 am 
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草民 wrote:
I was on the Central-to-Lamma ferry that crashed into the HK nd
.......


Very good post. Thanks for taking the time to write it.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:58 am 
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I saw all the fire vehicles (5) going to Pam kok about 835. But no ambulance.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:59 pm 
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Not much response from the lamma community either

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:32 pm 
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the ambulance was working hard in Yung Shue Wan. I'm guessing some boats were taking rescued people to the power station as the ambulance kept heading out that way and returning to the clinic. I think people rescued at the Pak Kok end were taken straight to hospitals on HK. Wouldn't make sense to bring them to YSW by ambulance - not an easy route. Maybe less serious cases brought this way by boat? Or perhaps just getting them out of the water and doing what they though best and fastest? I can imagine it was all pretty chaotic out there with many boat-owning locals just doing what they could to help.
The rescuers did a fantastic job and mobilsed pretty fast from what I hear. A friend in Pak Kok said he first became aware of what had happened about 15 minutes after the reported time of the accident and by that time the water was full of rescue boats and the helicopters had been there for a while.
It's very easy to sit at your computer and say what people should have done - can you be sure what you would do in such a situation? I doubt it.
Those ferry crews were under huge pressure all day to transport as many people as possible. Not excusing any negligence but no-one is at their best at the end of an exhausting day with no breaks.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:44 pm 
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I've just been informed that a public Condolences Book will be set up in the G/F offices of the Rural Committee opposite HSBC, available for your comments and signing, during office hours 9am-5pm, for the 3-day HK-wide mourning period.

Tomorrow noon, Thu, Oct 4, there'll be a 3-minute silence in the Rural Committee offices.

A bilingual Condolences Book will be set up on this website as well, of course.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:40 pm 
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dogstar wrote:
the ambulance was working hard in Yung Shue Wan. I'm guessing some boats were taking rescued people to the power station as the ambulance kept heading out that way and returning to the clinic. I think people rescued at the Pak Kok end were taken straight to hospitals on HK.


From reports there were a few passengers on the HKKF ferry with minor injuries who were treated at the clinic.

Those from Lamma 4 were taken to Aberdeen and then to several hospitals.

At the clinic at night with no doctor, all they can do is give them a cot (maybe they have a half dozen) and hold their hands.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:54 pm 
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My phone doesn't stop ringing today ... at least 5 media wanting interviews (all turned down as I don't know much more than what's in the media already) or contacts of eyewitnesses.
(That's one effect of having my phone number at the top of this website, the first one the reporters will find when searching online for "Lamma Island".)

To all passengers on the 8pm HKKF ferry - some of whom have already posted their eyewitness accounts in this forum - or if you have some new or additional info on the Lamma Ferry Disaster:

If you'd like to be interviewed, contact some of these bilingual reporters directly. Some of them will be on Lamma all day today:

Cherry of Sharp Daily (sister publication of Apple Daily) at 6077 5486

Send a Private Message to this newly registered forum members:

<a href="http://www.lamma.com.hk/forum-OK/privmsg.php?mode=post&u=9055">Manvis of Sing Tao Daily</a>

<a href="http://www.lamma.com.hk/forum-OK/privmsg.php?mode=post&u=9057">kaman of TVB</a>

<a href="http://www.lamma.com.hk/forum-OK/privmsg.php?mode=post&u=9056">Chanman of AP:</a>


KChan@ap.org wrote:
I'm a journalist with the Associated Press and I'm hoping to speak to some of the eyewitnesses on the ferry the night of the crash. I'm not looking for anything too different or unusual from what has been already reported, but we try as much as we can to do our own reporting instead of quoting from other news sources.

One thing you could mention to your friends and contacts is that the AP is one of the world's biggest news agencies so our reports are carried everywhere. I can be contacted at 9734 9379 or at this email address.
Thanks
Kelvin

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:49 pm 
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It's not a mystery to me how this happened. HKKF Lamma ferry crashed into another ferry without slowing or turning...it's a no brainer!!! The captain was not watching...15 or 20 seconds is all it takes

Some changes that should happen immediately: take all o the crew out of the cockpit when the ferry is seaborne and replace the windows so ppl can exit from them when or if this happens again.

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Big praises to the local fishermen who helped out with the initial rescue too

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 Post subject: HKKF
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:46 pm 
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Two years ago I witnessed the ferry crew taking beer into the wheel house.
No B.S. (Did not see them drinking it though)

I wonder if they got a breathalyser test from the police? Curious


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:11 pm 
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tom@medavia.co.uk wrote:
Subject: Trying to find British expats aboard the Lamma IV or the Sea Smooth

I'm a journalist working in the UK.
I'm trying to find British people who were aboard either the Lamma IV or the Sea Smooth. I don't suppose you know any who could be approached on my behalf?

For what it's worth, I'd be happy to arrange a finder's fee, depending on how the story makes (this is for a national newswire).


admin@holistic-central.com wrote:
Subject: Llama disaster
From: Dr Susan Jamieson and Holistic Central Medical Practice

As a gesture of support to the community who may be experiencing shock, post traumatic stress or anxiety, we’d like to offer, in October, a free session for anyone related to the dreadful boat crash, people on boat or not even on board:

- Counsellors/ psychologists Sharmeen Schroff, and Natalie Lawrence. they can help stress.
- Dr Susan Jamieson, for those who would like to see a family doctor.

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Last edited by Lamma-Gung on Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:31 pm 
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HK Electric wrote:
In response to press enquiries related to the fatal ferry crash, a HK Electric spokesperson today (3 October 2012) said the following:
<OL><LI>Participants list
HK Electric has kept an enrolment list for the fireworks display outing on 1 October 2012 containing the names of staff and number of friends and relatives taking part. However, the attendance of the day may, for various reasons, be different from the time of enrolment. HK Electric has in the past few days spent much effort in trying to compile and verify the information with the authorities concerned, our staff and their relatives.

The company has up to now gathered the details of 127 people on board but for privacy reasons will not be disclosing in public. The identity of the 38 deceased has been confirmed by their families.

<LI>Attendance
The attendance figure provided earlier on by HK Electric was based on actual counting of attendance by ferry crew on board. We will continue to find out why the discrepancy exists with the figure provided earlier.

<LI>Emergency relief
HK Electric announced yesterday that it would provide $200,000 for each of the deceased as emergency relief to cover funeral services and other contingency. As for issues relating to claims, it will be handled by the company’s insurer.

<LI>Memorial service
A public memorial service has been arranged for 12:30pm tomorrow (4 October) at St John’s Cathedral in Central to mourn the victims. HK Electric will also heed government’s appeal for staff to take part in a 3-minute silent tribute at 12 noon.

<LI>Public donation
HK Electric has engaged the Christian Family Service Centre to set up a donation account for those affected by the ferry crash. Donations can be made to HSBC account 004-808-6-000927, cheques should be payable to “Christian Family Service Centre”.</OL>

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 Post subject: Maybe what happened
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:35 pm 
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Here's some speculation based on the damage to both ships. And a drawing showing directions.

I think what happened is that the HKKF Sea Smooth was going about its normal business, bee-lining it towards the ferry pier after passing the lighthouse. The HKE Lamma IV crossed its path. In driving parlance, it cut the Sea Smooth off.

But the Lamma IV sort of had the right of way because the Sea Smooth would have been seeing the red port light the whole time. Further, the only way the Sea Smooth could have avoided it would have been to stop or make a sharp make a sharp right turn. I don't know why they didn't try to stop or slow down (or how fast they can come to a halt), but from inside the bridge, turning right probably looked extremely dangerous. They probably decided to keep their normal course - the course they take 99.99% of the time, assuming that the Lamma IV would have done something to stop crossing paths with them.

Both should have slowed the hell down, though. Curiously, SCMP quotes one expert as saying maybe the Lamma IV was in reverse...


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:17 am 
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On Monday, it was National Day, and the crowds on Lamma were incredibly huge, from very early on in the morning until late at night.

Ridiculously so.

The biggest amount of humanity I'm sure that Lamma has every witnessed before. (Even the local Chinese that would have a profitable day were stunned and overwhelmed)

In fact I can't even find a word to describe the crowds on Lamma.

As for the ferry guys...... I must defend them in a way,... (which is rare for me!)

How long were they working in stressful conditions without a break?? On usual days, I'm sure 'one of the crew' goes and takes a nap, and also they have time to eat and take a rest. They take turns to take breaks.

But this day was different. Bit of a 'tipping point'... I'm sure that the staff were overwhelmed and exhausted. It was non stop... there was no timetable for anything and no rest.

This should also be looked into.

I had to work this day. It was stressful getting to work, the noise, the frustrations and the volume of people. And It was stressful getting back to home Lamma as it was the same.

Usually I'm disappointed with most of the staff at HKKF, but this time questions should be asked how much pressure they were under. Same for the Captain of the HK Electric boat.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:07 am 
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ilanmangi wrote:
It's not a mystery to me how this happened. HKKF Lamma ferry crashed into another ferry without slowing or turning...it's a no brainer!!! The captain was not watching...15 or 20 seconds is all it takes

Some changes that should happen immediately: take all o the crew out of the cockpit when the ferry is seaborne and replace the windows so ppl can exit from them when or if this happens again.


I don't think it is such a "no brainer", and I am also quite sure that a portion of the blame will be assigned to EACH skipper. For a couple of reasons;

You don't know if the other ferry slowed or changed course either. (maybe they werent going to hit, and something happened at the last minute and the other vessel crossed the HKKF path).

Also, here in HK I have seen cargo boats, ferries, every type of traffic except internationally flagged cargo ships, challenging each other for right of way at full speed. What I mean is that when two vessels are on a converging course, neither will change course (even though it is clear which one has rights) until they are much too close for safety, then the one that should have changed course does. In all the instances I have seen that is.

Without having witnessed the accident myself I think this is the most likely cause of the accident. This culture of carelessness where the operators of these big boats hold course, at full speed, until the last second.

International COLREGS (International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea 1972, an internationally recognized by treaty to govern all vessels on coastal or high seas, inland waters, like HK may have SLIGHTLY different rules, but the ones I cite here WON"T be different ANYWHERE with rule of law) specify that;

Any vessel must "proceed at a safe speed at which she can to take action to avoid collision and be able to stop within a distance suitable to the prevailing conditions". These conditions include, among other things, traffic density. ie when there are more boats, or boats close to you you must slow down.

Actions taken to avoid collision must be: "obvious" and "taken in good time". I haven't witnessed a ferry doing either! not once!

That means that in my above example - BOTH BOATS ARE WRONG. If the other boat must give way to you, and you keep full speed until such a moment that you cannot avoid collision unless the other guy turns, then the blame ALSO lies with you. This is the situation I see over and over here in HK. My bets are on that this will be found to be a major contributor to this accident.

All vessels must also keep a watch out by "all available means" including radar, and AIS even if daylight or clear visibility. This requirement is clear, pleasure boat operators will argue all day about it, but any professional mariner knows this is required. I have heard (though find it hard to believe) the HKE boat was dark at the time. Radar would have made her much more visible. Many boats in HK equipped with Radar do not use it unless in restricted visibility, I watch. Last nite the Cheng Chau ferry, and the ferry to Lamma WHERE NOT USING THEIR RADAR AFTER DARK.

The AIS system I can look at online, and only a few of the boats present show on this system, which means most boats either don't have it or it is turned off. AIS broadcasts information which includes GPS course and speed over VHF radio so as to display traffic near you on your electronic charts. It was required by SOLAS (Safety of Life at Sea, international treaty) that vessels of this type be equipped with AIS as of 2003. As of 2007 SOLAS and the MARDEP of HK required annual testing of each ships AIS system by a certified Marine Engineer. http://www.mardep.gov.hk/en/msnote/pdf/msin0745.pdf
pretty obviously NOT BEING DONE!

Until this culture of carelessness, and enforcement of regulations is addressed, HK will remain a very dangerous place to travel on the water. This is were ppl should direct their efforts and anger, IF they really want to see some change.


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 Post subject: Re: Maybe what happened
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:18 am 
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Trey Menefee wrote:
Here's some speculation based on the damage to both ships. And a drawing showing directions.

I think what happened is that the HKKF Sea Smooth was going about its normal business, bee-lining it towards the ferry pier after passing the lighthouse. The HKE Lamma IV crossed its path. In driving parlance, it cut the Sea Smooth off.

But the Lamma IV sort of had the right of way because the Sea Smooth would have been seeing the red port light the whole time. Further, the only way the Sea Smooth could have avoided it would have been to stop or make a sharp make a sharp right turn. I don't know why they didn't try to stop or slow down (or how fast they can come to a halt), but from inside the bridge, turning right probably looked extremely dangerous. They probably decided to keep their normal course - the course they take 99.99% of the time, assuming that the Lamma IV would have done something to stop crossing paths with them.

Both should have slowed the hell down, though. Curiously, SCMP quotes one expert as saying maybe the Lamma IV was in reverse...


If this is what happened ( it SEEMS to be the most likely scenario) then everything I said above is supported and reinforced. Both skippers bear liability. Neither took obvious, early action to avoid collision.

IF this is the scenario. As you said, speculation, but it DOES seem the most reasonable explanation so far.

BTW if Sea Smooth sees the other boats red, that means stop. Also the term "right of way" comes giving way to the vessel to your right, so Lamma-IV has right of way in your diagram.[/u]


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:52 am 
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The HKKF ferry was taking a more direct route than normal and was closer to the headland than normal. This headland would have obstructed the view of each boat prior to the crash..... However there still would have been a short period 20 -30seconds when they were in clear view of each other! Lamma IV was turning before the crash and it most likely would have been a near miss if the HKKF ferry had made even the slightest turn

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:55 am 
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HKE ferry had already rounded the light too FYI

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