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 Post subject: Small amounts of cargo
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:18 am 
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Dear Anton. Thank you for your post it is important as a community we have dialogue I have to agree with your comments we do not want to be in a situation where they pick on cargo passengers. What we need is transparency Yes there will be times when we disagree over cargo with the ferry company but they should be empowered to make a decision based on the licensed cargo capacity of the ship. When I wanted to transport a large item I went to see them beforehand and got a cargo ticket in advance I gave them the dimensions of the item. Any responsible citizen should have an idea of what will fit in the licensed cargo areas. If not Hkkf should provide this guidance. I also agree the video is annoying and has limited use. However what it does show is that the company is responding to our concerns but you are correct it is annoying. As for standing up before the ferry stops I also agree it would be stupid and unrealistic to stop this. On one hand all those standing up take that risk and willingly expose themselves to it. On the other hand in an accident these passengers may get injured and restrict an emergency evacuation As always there are two sides to things. Lastly we must consider the crew they work hard everyday for us. They are professionals and should be treated as such. This means creating structures within the company where they are empowered to make reasonable judgements. At the moment it appears they are not respected or empowered by their employers.


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 11:50 am 
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While on the subject of safety on ferries, can anything be done about the afternoon ferries returning to YSW with schoolkids racing up and down the ferries? The principal offenders all appear to attend Bradbury School. The parents and helpers accompanying these children don't seem to care about their safety.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 11:28 pm 
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Do we hope they might be more careful with blocking the exits with cargo from now on? See main exit on the 10:30pm ferry Central-YSW tonight, just messaged to me by concerned passenger Robbie on the ferry.

When they arrived, one policeman was waiting at the ferry pier already, alerted by another passenger. A passenger took many pics including the staff on duty...


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File comment: 10:30pm ferry Central-YSW
Screenshot_2013-05-14-22-50-47.jpg
Screenshot_2013-05-14-22-50-47.jpg [ 117.04 KiB | Viewed 1166 times ]

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 11:53 pm 
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Two more pictures from Nick, sent to Apple Daily today, together with these words:

Subject: "Dangerous delivery by Fire Services Department who refuse to use adjacent freight pier!

At 10.25 am today Tuesday the 14th of May 2013 the Fire Services Department unloaded an electrically powered vehicle from a freight vessel onto the Yung Shue Wan public passenger pier.

The vehicle can be seen suspended over the walkway as passengers are embarking and disembarking from the ferry. The public pedestrian pier was utilised despite the availability of the empty adjacent commercial pier (built at considerable expense some years ago) the area into which the vehicle was dropped is the main thoroughfare for passengers and during the operation there appeared to be no effort to cordon off a safety zone.

The apparent disregard for both public safety and the inconvenience caused to passengers (that could have been avoided by using the appropriate pier) is a clear breach of the Fire Services commitment to protect and ensure the safety of Hong Kong citizens. The senior officer present appeared to be a Mr Lee.

The ferry was due to leave at 10.30am."


Attachments:
File comment: May 14, 2013, YSW ferry pier. photo by Mick
Nick-Fire-Dept-02.jpg
Nick-Fire-Dept-02.jpg [ 65.03 KiB | Viewed 1161 times ]
Nick-Fire-Dept-01.jpg
Nick-Fire-Dept-01.jpg [ 115.06 KiB | Viewed 1161 times ]

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 1:41 am 
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Alan wrote:
Who was the shipper? Some local triad businessman to have the staff so cowed?


Chances are high.

Any feedback from Yui Lai Fan yet? Doubt that too.

Regarding the vehicle and photo's in the above post. It's becoming a ridiculous joke.


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 7:14 am 
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I have complained to Hkkf by three emails and 5 voice massages. They did return the call. The spokeswoman said the senior managers are completing a report on the incident and will email me. I asked for a timeframe but none would be given. They have opened a case file on the complaint. Not happy with the phone response on Tuesday I went to the office and spoke with the pier manager who dealt with my complaint. I gave her a copy of the Lamma forum but was simply presented with a wall of silence other than we will get back to you. I am still waiting. The same day I went to the islands council office and expressed bu concerns. I left my contact details but the councillor has not contacted me or replied to my email. Likewise the marine department have ignored my numerous e mails. Another wall of silence.


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 Post subject: Bikes on the boat.
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 11:28 am 
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To quote the HKKF staff " She said that if there was cargo blocking the exits, the ferry would definitely not depart. "

So perhaps they can explain the photo of 6 or so bikes taken Tuesday doing just this.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 11:29 am 
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I told the policeman of the situation when i got off the ferry and went back on with him to show him. i dont think anyone had called him as he was just standing around. He agreed it was wrong but when he spoke to the large group of people who had all the bikes he then said it's ok as they have tickets for them!!! I explained that it's not the passengers fault (a group of young tourists) it is the fault of the pier staff for firstly selling more `cargo' than the cargo area can hold and secondly the crew for not realising there were too many bikes and telling the passengers to remove them. The crew didnt seem interested and the captain came out had a look and then went back upstairs very quickly.

As you can see in the pictures the bikes blocked one side door that is labelled as an emergency exit, the area at the bottom of the stairs so people had to exit the ferry single file AND at least 7 seats at the front row and this was a packed 10.30pm ferry. The photo of the crewman standing is just as the ferry is leaving Central - he didnt even look twice at the blocked exit.

Absolutely ridiculous.


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 12:13 pm 
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Yes folks you guessed it. The same captain and same boat as the Friday incident. Was the ticket staff also new that day so she got the cargo capacity wrong. Wow Hkkf have a huge staff turnover if this is the case. [/list]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 12:25 pm 
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Image

Image

Image


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 2:01 pm 
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______ you are a douche bag


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 4:10 pm 
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You may think that a few bikes in front of the door isn't a big deal, but in an emergancy it could be life or death! The ferry employes just don't care. I stand in Soladarity with those who want to change the culture of not caring at HKKF.

Image

Image

I hope we can all find as much insperation in these sayings as I have.


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 Post subject: progress update
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 5:57 pm 
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Posts: 61
1. have checked the licence today on one of the ferrites. The ferry has 22 child life jackets on board and 429 adult life jackets. I am going to investigate what a child life jackets means, i suspect it is for the 3 to 12 age group of which there are often more than 22 on board.
2. what provision is there for infants i.e. babes in arms, as i can see there are no floatation devises for the below 2 age group. On planes these are provided there is an example of a infant life jacket at

http://mespetites.blogspot.hk/2009/06/b ... -vest.html

and a child life jacket at

http://www.wakepro.co.nz/rfd-guardian-life-jacket.html

as you can see they are not the same. This website offers three sizes of child vest in addition to an infants vest.

SIZES:
Child Xtra Small - for children 6 months - 3 years, 10-15kg
Child Small - for Children 2 years - 5 years, 12-25kg
Child Medium - for children 5 - 16 years, 22-40kg

XS and Small have a crotch strap for additional protection - Child Medium do not.


I WOULD ENCOURAGE ALL PARENTS WITH INFANTS TO BUY THIER OWN INFANT LIFE JACKET. If you look at the advice on the ships video of how to enter the water you cannot do so in the recommended way while holding your infant. You can see the infant jacket holds the infant safe in the water even if they are unconscious.

3. I have received an email from Ms Yu Lai-Fan today and would like to thank her publicly for looking into the issue. Here is her response.

"Thank you for your e-mail. I also expressed great concern about the points that you mentioned in the e-mail.
I urged the HKKF to expedite the investigation and give the result to me as soon as possible.
I will let you know once I received the result or any other related information.
Thanks again for your concern to the community safety."


Please email her or drop into her office, her staff are very helpful and lovely.

4. I have been advised by the Police regarding ferries. They do not have any power to stop a ferry that is over loaded, nor do the marine police. They have suggested firstly you ask to see the captain and show him the issue. If he does not take action to your satisfaction you should tell him you will report him to the marine department. If no action is taken at this point you should take a photograph of the situation and tell the captain you are going to report him by name or vessel umber to the marine department. You may consider getting off the ferry if you feel unsafe.

The ultimate responsibility for safety is with the captain, it is his discussion and his alone to decide if the ferry sails regardless of any directives from management

5. If you are a parent please express you concerns to the Principal of your school and the PTA, they may have some influence.

6. I am still waiting for HKKF's reply to my initial enquiry and the marine department has not replied yet. I will phone them both soon.


Attachments:
File comment: If a child fell into the water they would probably fall straight through the bottom of this jacket.
This is the advice from

http://tinyurl.com/b76lxe4

PFDTooBig.jpg
PFDTooBig.jpg [ 32.91 KiB | Viewed 1027 times ]
infant life jacket.gif
infant life jacket.gif [ 32.59 KiB | Viewed 1027 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 7:20 pm 
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dory wrote:
While on the subject of safety on ferries, can anything be done about the afternoon ferries returning to YSW with schoolkids racing up and down the ferries? The principal offenders all appear to attend Bradbury School. The parents and helpers accompanying these children don't seem to care about their safety.


Yes, I would like someone to be 'responsible' when all the school kids are on the ferries. This is not about noise, or children being 'exuberant', I have no problem with that. Actually I do, but I am able to ignore it.

But as someone who works with children, I basically find the ferry ride a bit stressful as when the kids are running around, there is going to be an accident at some point. Nobody wants to see a kiddie being injured, or anyone for that matter.

The other day there was a little girl around 4 years old running up and down the upper deck. And then she fell.. went flying and smacked her head on the metal arm rest, then of course started screaming. She went downstairs and I went to check on her, and she was with her mum on the bottom deck.

Why does it always have to take a major accident, whether it be a child with a cracked head, or the loss of 39 lives before complacency stops?


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 Post subject: Re: progress update
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 10:50 pm 
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lamma air wrote:
The ferry has 22 child life jackets on board and 429 adult life jackets.


You must have seen that incredibly tedious safety video by now.
See how long and how complex it is to put one of those things on?
Unless you have 5 minutes' warning of a collision, no one is going to have time to get one out and put it on. Even less so in the dark with water rushing in.

They're a complete waste of time and a distraction.

The real problem is avoiding the collision.

About the only situation I can think of a life jacket might help is if there is a storm, the engine is flooded and the boat is slowly going down. Then we might have the leisure to unpack and strap them on, while the band strikes up "Nearer My God to Thee".


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 8:55 pm 
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Did you notice the new announcement on the ferry asking us to talk to staff if we have questions. ok it may be wishful thinking but this Thursday it appeared the staff were checking the exits and aisles, or at least walking up and down on the ferry, yes they may have been going to the toilet but i will give them the benefit of doubt. They also removed the name plate of the captain from the board, shame it was not replaced by a new name. These things are as simple as a piece of paper tick list used in the aviation industry of things that need to be checked before each departure, not rocket science. HKKF have still not got back to me nor has the marine department. I can only guess how the family's of the victims feel when dealing with such obstructive and incompetent agencies. Talking to friends who use the DB and First Ferry Services, these things never happen on their boats so why should we accept blocked exits and non existent t customer service?


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 Post subject: Sleeping staff
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 2:53 pm 
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This one I did not take a photo but one of the on duty crew was fast asleep on the 1430 ferry on Saturday 19 may to central in the downstairs seating area. At least if they are going to sleep they should do it out of view. Thankfully the bumpy wake from another ship woke him up. It hardly fills you with confidence But he did spring into action to deal with the ropes when we arrived.


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 Post subject: Re: Sleeping staff
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 5:42 pm 
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lamma air wrote:
This one I did not take a photo but one of the on duty crew was fast asleep on the 1430 ferry on Saturday 19 may to central in the downstairs seating area. At least if they are going to sleep they should do it out of view. Thankfully the bumpy wake from another ship woke him up. It hardly fills you with confidence But he did spring into action to deal with the ropes when we arrived.


The seamen work long hours for low pay.
As long as they're awake when they need to be, let them get what rest they can.


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 11:13 pm 
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Dear Alan.

Thanks for your reply but yes I do care about the safety of our community. I agree the boat staff work long hours and have low pay. We as a community should be supporting them to have reasonable working conditions, both pay and working hours. If we were to pay 50c extra per ticket this would mean $100 on a trip with 200 passengers. At the minimum wage this would be over 3 hours of extra staffing. It does not take much to work out the difference a small ticket price increase would make to the pay and conditions. Some aspects of safety cost money, life jackets cost money, training costs money, we have to face up to this, pay the money OR run the risk. Other things do not cost money such as management and decision making structures these are the main issues I have with HHKF.

Sleeping staff do matter whatever you say, they do not instil confidence in customers. Judgement and work performance are impaired when we are tired. Even more so if the sleeping staff are awoken by an incident whatever it is they are not in a position to deal with it swiftly. Anyone in the aviation or industry will tell you this has cost many lives on planes. While boats and plans are not the same all the boat staff have a role to play in managing an acute event, they cannot do this if they are awoken from a sleep. Research again from the aviation industry shows judgement can be compromised for up to 5 mins when person is awoken. This is made even worse if it is a disaster situation as some one abruptly woken in a disaster situation often suffers a type of sleep induced mental myopia. This is where the person has a one tra'ck mind and is vulnerable to making the wrong decision. If you were on the HKKF ferry that crashed you will appreciate that the boat crew were disorganized and appeared not to know what to do. In these situations they do need to take immediate and well judged action, if only to reassure a boat of hundreds of panicking passengers.

On the subject of the video I would also have to disagree with you, these sorts of procedures are there to act as reminders, these are important on routine boat journeys. They can make a difference between blind panic and knowing what to do in a collision, the brain needs constant reminders. Yes the video is annoying but this is the point you notice it every time and are annoyed by it, every time you get on board.

These structures do make a difference as safety psychologists and health and safety professionals will tell you. The "who cares attitude" that several posts have promoted on this forum miss this point. I care because in themselves they do matter and even more importantly they are systematic of a failing and complacent management. Accidents rarely happen because of one problem, they happen due to an accumulation of "who cares ". So to all those people who think "who cares", well add all these up and you could well end up with another 39 deaths, or worse. So yes I care abut my community each time I step on board the ferry. HHKF you will hearing form me each time is see a "who cares" and please if you are reading this do the same. They will change for the better.


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 Post subject: Let them sleep
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 12:34 am 
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lamma air wrote:
If we were to pay 50c extra per ticket this would mean $100 on a trip with 200 passengers. At the minimum wage this would be over 3 hours of extra staffing.


More likely that the staff would stay on the same wage and the company would pocket it.

And if he's on a 16-hour shift, he's going to be sleepy regardless if you insist on him staying on high alert continuously..

Quote:
Sleeping staff do matter whatever you say, they do not instil confidence in customers. Judgement and work performance are impaired when we are tired.


If they are sleeping when they don't have any duties to perform, they will be more alert when they do.

That's how ships have run for centuries. They're on duty, but can sleep till they're actually needed.


Quote:
Anyone in the aviation or industry will tell you this has cost many lives on planes.

An air ticket is hundreds of times the cost of a ferry ticket.
Salaries are much higher. Work hours are strictly enforced.

If something goes wrong on a plane, it's a lot more serious.

I'm perfectly happy if some guy whose job is to look after the mooring sleeps when he's not doing that. His job is not to "instil confidence in customers" or march around ceremoniously like a grenadier guard. His job is to tie and untie the boat from the mooring.

Quote:
While boats and plans are not the same all the boat staff have a role to play in managing an acute event, they cannot do this if they are awoken from a sleep.

I doubt many of the crewmen is qualified to "manage" an acute event, no matter how awake they are.


Quote:
If you were on the HKKF ferry that crashed you will appreciate that the boat crew were disorganized and appeared not to know what to do.

Implying they were all asleep?
it was 2 minutes away from the YSW pier. Everyone should have been awake and at their positions. So I don't see how this relates.

Quote:
On the subject of the video I would also have to disagree with you, these sorts of procedures are there to act as reminders,

I've been reminded.
I don't need to be reminded twice a day, ten times on every single voyage.

Quote:
They can make a difference between blind panic and knowing what to do in a collision, the brain needs constant reminders.

They won't help anyone find a jacket in the dark. I don't need a safety video of some girl smiling and tying herself into a jacket. I need emergency lights that work and indicate where the nearest exits are.

It's only purpose is so the ferry company can say "we told you" if there is another accident. All they do is press the "play" button and they're done. They can forget about it, while we have to watch the damn thing over and over and over and over and over.

Do we have to watch a safety video every time we get in a taxi?
Get on a bus? A tram?
All those have horrendous accidents, far more are killed in road accidents than boats in HK. But ferry passengers are the only ones forced to be educated. So the bureaucrats can cover their asses.

Quote:
So to all those people who think "who cares", well add all these up and you could well end up with another 39 deaths, or worse. .

I care, about avoiding collisions.
Nothing I can do, no video I watch, nothing the sleeping crewman could do, will affect that. Making us all go through tedious charades of "caring" won't make any difference if the captain thinks he has to keep to his schedule regardless.

I appreciate your vigilance, but there has to be consideration of where the real risks are and addressing them proportionately, not picking on lowly crewmen or harassing passengers so some bureaucrat can say they "did something".

If the company is can fob us off by punishing a crewman for not sufficiently looking alert, they'll probably cheerfully offer him up.
We won't be safer.

And despite the fear and anxiety from the crash, it must be remembered that no one on the HKKF ferry in the collision was killed. All the deaths were on HKE's Lamma IV, because it didn't have watertight bulkheads and went down immediately.
The HKKF ferries may not be shiny and spiffy any more, but they don't sink so easily.

Making sure that 1) the ferries don't have collisions and 2) that they don't sink like a rock if they do is what will keep us alive. Everything else is window dressing.


Last edited by Alan on Mon May 20, 2013 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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