What about Albert what's it who's suddenly taken an interest in Lamma. He's from the democrats and might be interested in collusion between their political rivals and business nterests flouting th law.

Also the press could have an impact.

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I did not have sex with that woman!

Hi
A recent complaint about dumping of construction waste on agricultural land in a village in Mui Wo ,Lantau.The following is quoted from the reply given by the EPD after a 3 month investigation.

"After checking the land status, the piece of land where fill material and construction waste found was privately owned. We have then confirmed with the owner that the dumping / filling work was carried out with his consent and management. As such, the dumping / filling work shall not constitute an illegal dumping activity under the Waste Disposal Ordinance and no enforcement action can be taken by this Department."

The letter finishes with........ "Thank you for your concern on the environment."


JJ

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"Iz more fun when u pran,pran,pran....
Pran your trip to Hong Kong Diksleylan"

There were two gentlemen taking videos of the dumping activity about 10.15 this morning. They said they were from the planning department. We discussed the operation for a while and they ended with the optimistic assurance: "don't worry, we'll see that it is stopped." On ya boys!

(I wonder if all these departments ever talk to one another - just thinking aloud)

This did sound encouraging. It is tempting to be defeatist, but this one is quite important as a kind of test case - if they get away with this one, who knows what will happen in the future. If they are stopped, it will send a message that we are watching and people cannot jsut disregard the planning laws at will.

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I did not have sex with that woman!

This has always been the motive behind all the developments in YSL.

The projects are presented as necessary for public safety -- the Ring Road supposedly for quick access by the fire brigade, even though the YSL section wouldn't have gone to the station; the channelisation as "flood control", for floods that have never threatened existing homes -- and the obvious implications for enabling new construction have been met with blank denials.

Now we're seeing the sequel: literally filling in the blanks in the framework that the government has made.

I do wonder though, when they turn it into another higgledy-piggledy collection of Spanish villas, jammed up against each other connected by mud tracks as in Sha Po, how it will survive rainstorms. Doesn't matter how deep they make the channel, it will be a concrete bowl basically at sea level. And I'm also sure that it will be a hot and steamy mosquito zone, there will be no breeze through there. But it'll be "5 minutes from the ferry".

Let me play Devil’s Advocate here: I’d be upset if Chinese came to America and insisted that we followed our planning laws. Doesn't It seem like a lot of foreigners telling the Chinese what they can and can’t do with their land?

We're talking about Hong Kong laws.
And we're all Hong Kong residents.

So, no, it doesn't seem like that at all.

You'd be upset if Chinese living in America asked the government to enforce its own laws? People born in other countries don't have the protection of the law? I suppose some people believe that.

Implying that "only foreigners" care about the environment is a common tactic, and offensively racist (against both sides). Ask some locals what they think before making such claims.

I'm sure plenty of Chinese care about the environment, just not the ones who own the land you want to keep pristine. Seems like they want to make some money off that land and if they break a law or two in the process, I think its their Chinese friends and neighbors who should make a fuss. Not the expat community, residents or otherwise.

Yes, why worry about laws. Only Chinese born and bred have any rights.

Excellent job of devils' advocacy, by the way.

That's not true; as an American I have more rights than most - but only while I'm in America.

In China, I don't expect to have the same right as a Chinese person. For example, I don't expect the right to break some silly ass zoning law in the name of making a profit. But if I was Chinese I'd expect that right. Especially if the only people I was bothering were (by and large) environmentally minded expats.

I can sympathize with whoever owns this land. Maybe it was an investment he now wants to cash in on.

Ok I admit, its more than devil's advocacy. I'd like to see a more (inteligently)developed Lamma island. I might even buy into it if it were. Its a beautiful island.

Probably most of the local business people would agree with you.

I find it grossly offensive myself.

Rule of law?
Equal rights?

Have a right to break a law? Hmm interesting concept.

There seem to be three layers, indigenous Lamma people whose family predates 1898 or whenever it was, local Chinese and expats. I don't see that expat residents, especially those who have paid taxes long-term and invested in the island have any less right to voice their opinions.

However, I do see that if the participants in a protest do appear to be exclusively foreign, it might appear to local landowners and business people something like the scenario outlined by hoggsbosom. A combined protest involving local and expatriate interests would be far more convincing.

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I did not have sex with that woman!

So, are only American Citizens protected by American law and the U.S. Constitution within the United states? I don't think so - I think any person inside the U.S. , of any nationality, can appeal to protection under the constitution.



Why do you characterise zoning laws as 'silly assed'? Have you considered the necessities of town planning considerations?

You are entitled to a great many rights here in Hong Kong, even if you do not consider yourself to have any significant commitment to the betterment of the place. Just because you may, it seems, consider yourself to be an 'expat' who is living away from home - please don't consider that any-and-all other non-Chinese feel the same way about their residence here in Hong kong. Many have spent their whole lives here. This is their home. They have raised their families here and they have just as strongly a vested interest in the strength of its civil society and the health of its environment as does someone who can trace their lineage here back ten generations.


I see your point here. If I was a land owner (or as close as one could be said to come to that as is possible in HK) I would feel quite offended if others told me I could not do with my land, within the restrictions of local law, as I pleased. Of course there are many cases in many countries throughout the world where landowners rights were overridden by the rights of the common wheel - as in the common practice of expropriation of private land for the building of public facilities or for the creation of parks.

There are other ways to protect land that do not involve the violation of private property rights, specifically the creation of Land Trusts, whereby a no-profit organisation raises money to purchase private land and place it in a protected legal state or 'trust' http://www.possibility.com/LandTrust/

It's because of this consideration that I feel that our primary focus should be upon the protection of the stream and not in trying to prevent the building of houses all together. Don't get me wrong, I would very much like for the valley to be preserved as an agricultural area and certain parts, in their natural state.

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Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
----- Margaret Mead

I very much agree - and I know there are MANY ethic Chinese residents on Lamma who care a lot about the environment. In fact, most of the many people who turned out for Green Lamma's recent beach cleanup (organised by SiuYu) were Chinese!

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Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
----- Margaret Mead

The government owns the land.
People can lease it for specified purposes, e.g., agriculture.
If they want to build a house, they have to apply and pay for the conversion.

After someone has leased land for a long time, they naturally feel a sense of ownership. And the government gives them security in their continued occupation. But they DO NOT have the legal right to convert agricultural land to other purposes.

This is not a peculiar Hong Kong law, or an imposition by British colonialists; land use is governed by similar regulations in most countries, especially in urban areas. (The land in question is 100 metres from Main Street.)

Of course, they aren't enforced everywhere, third world slums and shantytowns for example.

Exactly, save the stream and build more houses. But again that's up to the Chinese.

I couldn't go to the Lands Department (Islands District) today, but i phoned them instead.
They said they have received other complaints, and will investigate the matter.
Strangely enough they didn't answer my question "Is the land for agricultural use? If so, why can't this violation of the terms of use be stopped immediately?"

I think we should keep the heat on. More residents should phone this department, or send a fax, asking the same questions.

Albert Chan is coming to Lamma on Saturday morning. I will certainly raise this issue with him. Given that Lamma is a DAB fiefdom, i am sure we will find a sympathetic ear.

But again, you're ignoring the law (the Chinese law, if that makes a difference).

I got the same response several years ago when I asked them about the restaurants that have built illegal extensions into the bay, or occupy public land every weekend. They just stick up notices, send letters, which are ignored, and let the matter drop. And then a few years later some politician lobbies them to retrospectively legitimise it. Then the next round of enroachments begins.

Anyone have a useful contact in the Chinese language press? I think this one is worth fighting for, because it is the thin end of the wedge. Otherwise, welcome to the Yung Shue Long mosquito-infested "projects."

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I did not have sex with that woman!

News update:

This Wednesday, April 1, at 11:00 representatives from the Lands Department, Environmental Protection Department and the Food and Hygiene Department will come to Lamma to inspect the site.

They have already issued a warning to the owner but, as we know, the owner is ignoring it.

According to the Lands Department,
the only way we can stop this is by reporting mosquito breeding and potential flooding problems caused by the dumping of construction waste.

The Lands Dept. is clearly impotent, because it's private land, they can only issue warnings when the terms of use are violated, as in this case, but cannot do anything else.

It seems that the terms of use in Hong Kong are a mockery of what they stand for in other countries.

That means, i can buy some cheap agricultural land, dump waste, maybe even get paid to dispose of other people's waste, and when it becomes obvious that nobody can no longer grow anything there, voila... i can start building.

I invite as many people as possible to be at the site tomorrow at 11 am to voice our concerns.

Phone calls to the EPD are also effective, because they take your name and add your complaint to their list.