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 Post subject: Re: Let them sleep
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 10:52 am 
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Alan wrote:
I've been reminded.
I don't need to be reminded twice a day, ten times on every single voyage.


They don't show the video just for you. There are lots of tourists who never seen it before.


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 Post subject: Re: Let them sleep
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 10:56 am 
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__________ wrote:
Alan wrote:
I've been reminded.
I don't need to be reminded twice a day, ten times on every single voyage.


They don't show the video just for you. There are lots of tourists who never seen it before.


Show it on the weekends when the tourists actually are on the boats.
Give them a brochure.


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 Post subject: Re: Let them sleep
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 11:10 am 
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Alan wrote:
Give them a brochure.


Image


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 11:37 am 
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Actually since there's no sound with the video, it's very easy to ignore the screen totally, like 99% of passengers do, same as they do with the demos on airplanes (except the blowing the whistle bit).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 12:22 pm 
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Tally Ho wrote:
Actually since there's no sound with the video, it's very easy to ignore the screen totally, like 99% of passengers do, same as they do with the demos on airplanes (except the blowing the whistle bit).


Sure.
Could be worse, like the awful video ads they have on KMB

It just seems like a "we must do something" response, regardless if it addresses a real problem, or if anyone would benefit from it.

It's more bureaucratic pollution, like the numerous ugly signs all over HSY beach, many with their own steel post and concrete anchor planted in the sand, telling you that it's a beach, that a barbecue area is a barbecue, and that jumping onto rocks might be dangerous. All these things are true, and like all the "announcements of public interest" on the TV and radio, completely fucking obvious and anyone capable of reading already knows.


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 Post subject: Not a witch hunt
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:44 pm 
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Dear Alan thanks for your feedback on my previous post. I agree avoiding the crash in the first place us the priority. The video safety briefing is a requirement of Hong Kong law. This has been the case for many years but we have only just got it. I am somewhat confussed by your assertion that tourists are only on the boat at weekends. This is not the case and the life jackets are so complicated that a reminder will not do any harm. Alan the video is not just for you it us for all users if the boat. I am sorry if you find it a distraction. You also equate price with acceptable safety standards please try to tell that to the bereaved families. Your comments about harassing staff are unfair. It is not about this it is about working towards a properly regulated industry where the crew do not work such long hours. It is supporting the professional crew to work towards better conditions. Remember in all this the crew are most at risk as they are on the boat all the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Not a witch hunt
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 6:08 pm 
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lamma air wrote:
You also equate price with acceptable safety standards please try to tell that to the bereaved families.


You're the one who said fares should be raised to somehow improve safety.

Safety has a cost. You can't just say "lives are priceless" because the costs have to be met from somewhere.
There is a cost/benefit for every safety feature.

Cost isn't just money, it's also convenience, or lack of it. Or we would all put on life jackets before we got on the ferry.
Instead, we know that there has not been a fatal accident on a Lamma commuter ferry in the last half century, so we take the risk rather than pay the cost.

The "bereaved families" were not of HKKF passengers.
It was the Lamma IV that had inadequate safety features, it went down like a rock and the passengers died in it.
So, I'm all for telling HKE to improve their standards, and Marine Dept to enforce the existing rules.

You seem to be ignoring the real risks in favour of the ones that catch your eye.

Quote:
I am somewhat confussed by your assertion that tourists are only on the boat at weekends.

Just 99% of them.

Quote:
Your comments about harassing staff are unfair.

You were complaining about this specific crewman. What do you think would happen to him if a formal complaint was made? Maybe they'd tell him to take his break in the engine room, probably a pleasant 40 degrees and 100 decibels. He'd be well rested then.
Quote:
It is not about this it is about working towards a properly regulated industry where the crew do not work such long hours.

Fine. If you campaign for that without complaining about the crewmen who have no choice in the hours they work.


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 9:19 pm 
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Today the marine department have got back to me, I have to say they were very helpful and interested the concerns expressed by passengers. While not a formal statement by the marine department they did say "All possible means of escape need to be clear so they may be used appropriately". I went on to clarify if the meant the water tight doors by which passengers enter and exit the boat, the agent confirmed in his opinion this was the case. He also outlined other similar complaints had been made and were under investigation.

He did clarify the licences for passenger ferries and "cargo ferries" were different and that there had been a trend for local traders to use the passenger ferry to transport cargo.

He outlined the need for evidence and has provided me with this contact e-mail

cmo@mardep.gov.hk

If you have any concerns regarding the ferry service or photographic evidence please email these to

cmo@mardep.gov.hk

You may also want to know I have still not heard back from HKKF yet, the case number opened by the Pier 4 manager is #1035 opened on 11 May 2013, you may want to add you evidence to this case number.


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 9:37 pm 
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lamma air wrote:
He did clarify the licences for passenger ferries and "cargo ferries" were different and that there had been a trend for local traders to use the passenger ferry to transport cargo.


I think most of the "problem" cargoes" you have mentioned weren't "traders" but residents bringing their own stuff.
Though the big shelves that started this look like they might be for a shop.

Anyway, there's a cargo pier built at great expense and a cargo kaido daily. That's what "traders" should be using. No hassles on the ferry or VVs squeezing through crowds on the pier.
The kaido has a crane to lift loads on pallets in a few minutes and away they go.

Since it's obviously better to use the kaido, it must just be more expensive.


Last edited by Alan on Mon May 20, 2013 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 9:39 pm 
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Dear Alan
Thanks again for your comments, we appear to working towards at least some common aims, especially working towards supporting the crew to work reasonable hours. I have not and will not make a complaint against a single member of staff who takes a short nap on the ferry because he is over worked.

Yes also like you Alan I am asking existing rules to be implemented such as displaying crew names, adhering to the licensed cargo capacity of the ship and asking the company to follow their own terms and conditions for carriage of cargo. You are also correct in many ways I am raising things that are minor compared to the bigger issues that you raise. The issues I am raising are as well as rather than instead. of. Furthermore I also agree they are things that I just see as a lay person. The more I look the more I see so it makes you wonder what else can we not see? Are there even bigger elephants in the room?

So Alan I agree with most of what you say, however I would ask you that you keep your language clean. This is a community forum which can be accessed by everyone. Your language does not offend me in the slightest but it may offend other users of this forum, lets keep it free of bad language please.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:23 am 
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Posts: 30
Central - Yung Shue Wan ferry 22:30 20/5

Exit blocked with unsecured cargo

https://www.dropbox.com/s/buetzv0ewq43r ... 6.37.jpg?m

No crew names posted.

Yung Shue Wan -> Central 21/5 10:30

Crew names posted. However, waiting to load onto the ferry for the return 11:00 Central -> Yung Shue Wan (Advance booking is required for the carraige of a large quantity of freight) was this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/x8c9934zc40wg ... 6.47.jpg?m

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fm102iabkc0qw ... 6.59.jpg?m

and this

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zmnznoy8aac30 ... 7.07.jpg?m

and this

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nxbs084smepjq ... 7.21.jpg?m

It's not for me to say what can and can't fit on the ferry - but I doubt that lot fit on a passenger ferry without blocking the exits and stairs.

If anyone was on the 11:00 sailing from central maybe they can confirm.

I see that HKKF have taken the complaint the OP made "seriously"


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 Post subject: ongoing to concern
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 1:29 pm 
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Posts: 61
It is somewhat hard to believe that after the company statement which said "the ferry would definitely not sail if the exits were blocked"

Thanks Jamie for your links, please we need more of these to present and over whelming body of evidence to the CMO.

Simply thanking others for taking action is not enough, simply saying to each other "that Park Island Ferry was so close" is not enough. We now have a point of communication with the CMO so lets help them improve things.

Here is the email I sent to the CMO. You will see the Head of Bradbury School is also aware of the situation so if you are a parent please contact the CMO and HKKF.

cmo@mardep.gov.hk

Dear Mr ######

Here is some more evidence for you posted on the Lamma Forum . This evidence is not from me so I cannot validate it in any way. The blockage of exits are still occurring after a company statement to SCMP that ferries with blocked exits would not sail. The Principal of Bradbury School is also emailing you regarding her concerns as the ferries are used by a large number of ESF students. As each day passes I am getting more and more concerned about safety for our community. If its OK I will give you a call tomorrow as I have to work late today and do not want to take up your time outside the office. I was also concerned that the Discovery Bay Ferry #2 , the 7.00 service on 21 May 2013 passed us within the 5 knot inner harbour speed limit area. The HKKF ferry as far as I can see was observing the speed limit and in fact almost had to come to a stop as the DB #2 Ferry passed us and then pulled in front of us. I have seen similar incidences with the 7.00 Park Island service. I have to say the HKKF captain was observing the speed limit of 5 Knots was piloted very safely in my opinion given that other ferries were assertively trying to get in front of us.

(Details of post by Jamie was emailed to the CMO).


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 Post subject: marine department
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:57 am 
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Posts: 61
Lets begin with the Marine Departments first service pledge.

Pledges ( http://www.mardep.gov.hk/en/aboutus/pledge.html )

Safety of Life at Sea - We pledge to devote our professional knowledge and technical expertise to protecting the lives of those who work on ships or travel by sea.

Here are the the contact details for the Marine Department
Passenger Ships Safety
tel 2852 4500

Fax 2545 0556

email sspax@mardep.gov.hk
I have sent emails this address but have had no reply.

Who should I report an collision to or near miss to? You can report near misses and collision (physical contract between the ship and another object of any type) to the Marine Department Hotline which is 22337808. You should insist on being given a case number.

You may also want to contact
Marine Accident Investigation and Shipping Security Policy Branch
Tel 2852 4601

Fax. 2542 4841
hkmpd@mardep.gov.hk


If you experience a collision you need to report this to a member of staff on the boat in case they did not see it. The Marine Department will also need the date and time, if it is safe for you to do so take a picture with your SMART phone, this will mean you have a time and location tagged photo. Do this even if you cannot photograph the obstacle the ship made contact with or came close to.

If there is collision and when it is safe to do so you should request the captain complete this form and take his name and licence number.

Report Marine Incident M.O. 822 http://www.mardep.gov.hk/en/forms/home.html


Marine Accident Investigation Section Enq: 2852 4523


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:54 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 8:51 am
Posts: 61
Found some more information, the Transport and Housing Department appear to have some areas of responsibility regarding cargo. Here are their general contact details.

Firstly the Hot Line for complaints you will be passed to 1823
they will deal with your complaint regarding overloaded ships.
They have opened a case for me and you can add your suggestions and evidence to this case number.

The case number is 1-427-619-469, you can also email them evidence to tellme@1823.gov.hk, you may like to quote the above ref number.

They do have a service pledge to give a "substantial reply within 10 working days" This case was opened at 12.30 pm on 22 May 2013.

Their web site is
http://www.1823.gov.hk/big5/

The Transport and Housing Department also have responsibility for cargo

http://www.thb.gov.hk/eng/contact/transport/index.htm

They do have guidelines specifically........

TRANSPORT COMPLAINTS UNIT

The Transport Complaints Unit (TCU) handles complaints and suggestions on all transport and traffic matters. There are two sections: Complaints Section and Research and Statistics Section. The Complaints Section follows up complaints on a regional basis, namely Hong Kong, Kowloon and the New Territories. The Research and Statistics Section analyses complaints statistics, conducts research and monitors public opinion on various aspects of the local transport system.

The TCU can be reached by:

Hotlines: (852) 2889-9999
(Voice mail service after office hours)
Fax: (852) 2577-1858
Email: info@tcu.gov.hk


I have found this specific reference to bicycles on boats (this is to follow up the photo of cycles on the ferry posted earlier)

http://www.thb.gov.hk/eng/psp/pressrele ... 1_ann2.pdf

Quote from above website. "Ferries: Ferries allow the boarding of bicycles that do not occupy seats if the cabin
permits proper parking of bicycles. The
design and occupancy characteristics of
most vessels operated by franchised and licensed ferry companies meet the
conditions for the carriage of bicycles by passengers. "

We can make our ferries safer but I do acknowledge this may be at the inconvenience of Lamma residents moving personal items. As Alan points out in economic terms lives are not "priceless" there does have to be some level of Cost Benefit Analysis, but I feel safety does have a certain price worth paying in terms of convenience and financial cost.

Please add your voice to case number 1-427-619-469 with the 1823 hotline and case number 1035 with HKKF.


Last edited by lamma air on Wed May 22, 2013 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 5:32 pm 
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Some figures, via Damon Wong:

Average daily Outlying Islands ferry patronage, comparing 2009 and 2012:

Cheung Chau: 20,458, up 15.4%
Mui Wo: down 5%
Peng Chau: 5,290, up 6.2%
Yung Shue Wan: 7,815, up 10%
Sok Kwu Wan: 997, up 1.9%
So Kwu Wan - Mo Tat - Aberdeen: 553, up 5.7%


Attachments:
Ferry-passenger-2009-2012.jpg
Ferry-passenger-2009-2012.jpg [ 46.74 KiB | Viewed 837 times ]

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 Post subject: Finally some progress.
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 6:10 pm 
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Posts: 61
I received this very swift acknowledgement from the 1823 Hotline to my enquiry.

Complaint about overload of ferry from Central to Yung Shue Wan (Case Ref: 1-427619469)

We have received your complaint of 20 May 2013.

Based on the information provided, the matter is under the purview of Marine Department and Transport Department. We have referred your case to the department for follow-up action. They will either reply to you directly or ask us to reply to you.

If you have any enquiry, please contact us at 1823.

Regards,
Yvonne Wong
Customer Service Officer

I have submitted evidence of my own and the publicly available evidence posted on this Forum.

Again a plea please sent your own evidence and concerns to

Tellme@1823.gov.hk Include the case number please which is 1-427619469


Simply posting your concerns here is not enough and a single voice has limited impact.

Many thanks.


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 Post subject: Action to be taken?
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 12:16 am 
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Location: Tai Peng
It seems they pretend to be concerned ....
I guess that picture refers to the above mentioned incidents.


Attachments:
IMAG0002.jpg
IMAG0002.jpg [ 295.33 KiB | Viewed 759 times ]

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 Post subject: New procedures
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 9:00 am 
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Posts: 61
HKKF have responded to our concerns. They have clarified their cargo policy and made a few amendments to it. You can see these new terms and conditions on a public display board by the barriers.

Dated 16 May.
"In view of recent concerns over the freight carriage service, the arrangement in accordance with Ferry Service Timetable is highlighted below"

I would like to thank HKKF and the CMO for responding to the concerns raised and clarifying the HKKF Terms and Conditions of Service.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 9:50 am 
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Posts: 70
Well done... let's hope they enforce it!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 10:37 am 
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Location: Tai Peng
Thanks for the copying of the picture's content lamma-air. Don't know why the picture isn't displaying. It was fine yesterday on the preview before i send it.

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