no difference to the mainland,exactly the same in the case of my experiance in Chongming and Shanghai

true,titels are not unrestricted,same in China Mainland,there are no poor farmers in the wealthy provinces of China,thats in your fantasy...and they can't be thrown out too.

But It nearly happend in Chongming .As in the case of the Baroque the opposition against the developement weakend the title holders,in this case the farmers therfore they gave in to condittions in the developers favour.
Would the Government not have waived the taxbill incured by the developers after the complex was running,the farmers would have lost there land to the taxmen and he would have auctioned the land to the highes bidder,perhaps the developer.
As you are saying "indigenous" people in NT are a very privileged class,same in China,but they can easy loose there rights.

I am talking about the LAW IN HK and you are saying exactly the same,admiting it below

do you ever tell somebody he stinks,thats why perhaps never somebody told you about fruitcakes at all...

I'm sorry Ewald but you seem to be completely bonkers. It is certainly impossible to have reasoned discussion with you.

Anyway, there's little point in arguing now that the period for comments on the Baroque thing has closed.

When will we hear what the authorities have decided? Anyone know?

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Inane generalisations, whether about Eastern Europeans, or locals or foreigners, are hardly helpful

Could everybody refrain from personal attacks and name calling, please?

It's quite daring to voice an opinion in opposition to the vast majority in this forum. If we want to practice free speech, so essential to any democracy, name calling and aggressive remarks really don't help and never get anybody to change their opinion to yours.

I had late lunch in South Lamma yesterday after an all-day hike to Sham Wan. The restaurant was empty in the afternoon, so we started chatting. He's very clearly and openly pro-Baroque and hoping for better business for his restaurant if a hotel would be built in Tung O Wan. He's entitled to this honest opinion and his reasoning, however flawed they may be, like everybody else in this divisive matter.

So could we continue without personal attacks, please?

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The Town Planning meeting will be first week of Dec, not sure about the exact date.

1,757 submissions have been received up to the deadline of Oct 14, a lot more than in the first round 3 months ago. No news yet about pro and con percentages.

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according to a very reliable source, ‎1250 comments support The Baroque plan. 90% of those comments are the same... a sample letter was used by these so-called 'supporters'.
That's what money can buy. All they needed was a list of people's email accounts, and used that to swamp TPB with the same comment. If you have seen people marching in support of issues dear to the government in return for a lunch box, a baseball cap and a matching tee-shirt you understand how politics work in HK.

We need to alert the press about this style of 'public consultation', as sample letters should not count as comments.
Developers who pay someone to send the same comment a thousand times under different names are highjacking the process

News just in from Living Lamma:

1,250 comments to Town Planning Dept. support The Baroque plan.

71% pro, it's a surprising reversal of the first round's 93% opposing comments. This might be a new record for number of submissions for any Outlying Island project (?), due to intensive lobbying on both sides.

But it's not the quantity but the quality of all the submissions that will have some influence on the outcome, hopefully. But this is not a vote, just a public consultation, and the TPB is free to decide any way they see fit after considering many other factors besides the public consultation's comments. It's still an arcane and mysterious decision-making process, it seems.

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I hope that the town planning board realise that they are not conducting a referendum but seeking comments as to the likely impact on the environment and other issues that people think should be considered by the board.

If a "sample" letter says the same thing many times, the observations only need to be considered once, in so far as it effects the whole population.

If they want to have a vote on the matter then that is a different thing, and it must done in a proper fashion with sufficient notice.

The nature of the objections, if submitted without coercion and proforma documents, should be far more varied and reasoned, which should lead to an overwhelming defeat.

Its important to remember that there are 7 million people in HK, the impact on all these people should be considered, not just the interests of a few financially interested businessmen or locals.

Therefore, an objective approach should be taken that considers the interests of Hong Kongers as a whole.

Any approach that considered the merely the interests of a few hundred people who have a financial interest is manifestly wrong.

The comments should be considered in relationship to the whole population and the implied impact based on the comments as a possible outcome.

I went to TPB this morning and got this calculation. About 1250 support comments are recorded and more than 1200 come from the same template which people just signed their name on.

I can only mark 380 against comments among 1757, Now it makes 1400 "for" and 1500 "against' from the total number of submissions of 2985.

Ah ah...that is how they got so many supporters...signing a sample letter is not the same as writing a comment on the merits, or lack of thereof, of The Baroque plan.
I really do hope that it's not a vote count, because if that is the case, there should be a territory-wide referendum, and both parties should be given the same means and chances to inform the public about it.
TPB should only consider arguments, rather than numbers.

We can point this out if they try to claim broad support, but it's not illegal, or even really wrong, unless they were stupid enough to directly pay people to send comments of support.
Quite likely many objections were cut and paste as well. It's quite valid if you really do agree with the argument you are copying to use someone else's words.

Fortunately, the TPB don't seem sympathetic to the Baroque plan, and so far have judged it lacking.Hopefully they won't be bamboozled by the greenwash and astroturfing.

http://interlocals.net/?q=node/377

this is a detailed analysis of the first round of objections to the Baroque.

The most interesting part is who supports the development:

Supporting view: Lamma Island needs rapid development
When going through the some 60 comments, most letters were sent via organization. For example, both Lamma Island (North) Rural Committee and (South) Rural Committee supported the development of Tung O. South Rural Committee said in the letter, “Development plan…is a rare opportunity for co-existence of development and conservation of Lamma Island”. The committee also attached a support letter with a list of all members. Companies which have business in Lamma Island also support the development such as a Restaurant in Sok Kwu Wan, yacht sales company, Tsui Wah Ferry, etc. Hong Kong and Kowloon Ferry (HKKF) is the most active one. It runs a number of Lamma Island ferry routes and sent support letters to the Board in the name of five separate companies, including Hong Kong and Kowloon Travel Co Ltd., Shing Wing company, Islands Ferry Company Ltd, Hong Kong and Kowloon Ferry Holdings Ltd and HKKF (see below, letters head of five companies were using HKKF’s sign)

A study of marine life and the ecosystems off Lamma's southeast coast finds it to be in surprisingly good shape, with a few rare species also discovered. Perhaps surprisingly this report also gets some coverage in the local Chinese media.

Report in today's SCMP:

Project 'threatens' Lamma marine life

Environmental groups find fragile underwater ecosystem off island's southeastern coast, where developers plan 850 homes and massive marina
Cheung Chi-fai
Updated on Nov 14, 2011


A huge property development planned for Lamma Island's southeastern coast could destroy one of the last remaining untouched marine ecosystems in Hong Kong, according to an undersea survey of the area.
The study found large schools of fish and horseshoe crabs on the seabed, as well as soft corals and sea cucumbers on boulders off the rocky coast where a developer wants to build a luxury villa and a marina.

The survey by the Eco-Education & Resources Centre and Green Power suggests the coast has promising marine resources, but that even the slightest development would likely upset the undersea ecology.

The green groups are urging the Town Planning Board to reject the proposal, named Baroque on Lamma, at a meeting on December 2 to scrutinise a land-use rezoning request from the developers.

The luxury residential and marina project, situated near a conservation area, was rejected by development and planning officials last year. The developers are now proposing an amended plan.

The HK$10 billion project would occupy more than 26 hectares of land and provide about 850 residential units. It would consume 43 hectares of water for 500 yacht berths, 50 residential units, a yacht club and commercial facilities.

The project is a joint venture between Agile Property Holdings, a Hong Kong-listed company that usually focuses on mainland real estate, and local company King Wong Development.

A spokeswoman for Baroque on Lamma said the company would address concerns about marine life in its detailed environmental impact assessment. It also said a marine breakwater and other structures to be built in the sea would act like artificial reefs, providing habitat for marine organisms and attracting fish.

"BOL will be a showcase of how new development can co-exist with the natural environment," she said. In a project profile submitted to the Environmental Protection Department, the developers, backed by Agile, said the area had relatively little value as a fishery.

However, the environmentalists reached a different conclusion after four dives between May and October this year along a 200-metre stretch of coast. They found a school of up to 100 chicken grunts and another group of 30 juvenile mangrove red snappers. The divers also found a mature, 50cm daisy parrotfish, a species that has become extremely rare in Hong Kong.

"There was only one recorded instance of this fish here - found in the Ninepin Islands - in the past seven years," said the centre's Ken Ching Sze-hoi.

Other surprises included a yellowbar sandperch - the first recorded in Hong Kong - and a 20cm juvenile horseshoe crab, the first such sighting in the area.

Ching said the property development would probably create light pollution that could confuse endangered green sea turtles returning to nearby Sham Wan beach to lay eggs.

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Guess its time to tell AGile King Wong where to go and its not Lamma.

The whole thing is disgusting and its extremely surprising they'd even think of it, but then this is HK and there are plenty of greedy bastards out there.

Yes,it stinks!


This time the force is out to destroy every bit of good stinking about Lamma Island


This developement would bring a new way of thinking about the future,it would create jobs badly needed on Lamma Island and perhaps it would helpe to rethink of how bad the daily commuters are for Lamma Island.

What do you mean by `how bad the daily commuters are for Lamma'? What commuters?

How many jobs do you think will go to the local Lamma population if this project goes ahead??!!

Looks like he already has one.

Ewald, as in your previous post, you seemed to mention how this will give 'badly needed jobs' to Lamma residents.

Every morning while out hiking or walking at the beach, I notice the hundreds of employees who turn up to work at our local Power Station.

How many locals work at the local Power Station? Any idea?

If jobs are so badly needed for local Lamma people, I would assume they would all work there. However, this doesn't seem to be the case.

So why would the Baroque give jobs to the locals? Please enlighten me.