I could disappear and the forum would go on. We don't have many real troublemakers now anyway.

If you do, it's lights out.

Well, the forum would go on if I'd go. It usually runs fine by itself, with the help of our moderators and the webhosting cost is nothing significant.

Except this morning, when the site went down due to another server traffic overload. We seem to be still under attack from spambots in Mainland China trying to poke a hole into this forum's defences, always unsuccessful so far, but the temporary traffic overload gets our hosting company to shut down the server automatically and leave it down till I email them to get it back up, just a few minutes ago...
So if somebody else would be willing to volunteer-webmaster this forum and deal with the webhosting and technical issues, it could go on.

Anyway, in this age of other Social Media, would anybody really miss this old, creaky forum? Who's got time for forum discussions when they need to update their Facebook pages daily?

But I've never seen free classifieds or discussions about local hot topics like the Democracy Wall in any Lamma-related social media (I monitor them for story ideas and photos, as a freelance Internet Marketing Consultant.)
Maybe a local community forum like this can still be useful?

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Sorry to interupt...but nice to see we're staying on topic.

Yes, it would give a much better impression to visitors if we replaced this messy forum with a tasteful selection of pictures, chosen and approved by our beloved village representatives to inculcate the correct attitudes.

How about photoshopping the 60 into "8 Years of Lamma.com.hk!"?

Then I might add this picture to the home page, replacing the "hippyshit" (according to insomniac) "Welcome to Lamma" former Democracy Wall graffiti I'm using now on some top level pages of this site.

Well, sorry for the interruption again, mingsta, back to the main topic. Who gives a "hippyshit" about the future of this forum anyway?
By the way, the recurring "501 Not Extended" error crashing this entire website again this early morning has just been temporarily solved, enabling us to continue to discuss the Wall.

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The relocation of the 'democracy wall' to the adjacent, 'community fence', would on first impressions appear to present the perfect solution to the topic of the need for a community notice board.

The tatty, laid back 'hippy myth lot' gets to perpetuate the myth. Bret Anderson's mug's was up there in stereo.

The ' keep it tidy lot' get to keep the fence tidy.

An everybody still gets to see it.

That's democracy in action.

OK, the official word from Chairman Chan, Rural Committee chairman and District Councilor is that we're allowed for now to put up posters!

I'll sacrifice my last posters this afternoon to test this, as I expect them to be taken down daily by either the Lap Sap ladies of FEHD (under instruction from their bosses or from Lammadonna??), or otherwise some Lammaite who loves the cleanliness of the grey wall.

If somebody sees who's taking down the posters, let us know, please. The official word is that they're permitted for now. Thanks.

There'll be a design contest by Living Lamma about the future look of the Democracy Wall. Home Affairs Dept. (who's renovated the wall temporarily) and the Rural Committee have agreed to this already. Details to follow..

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This from the FEHD site.

"Poster Removal
It is an offence to display bills and posters in any streets or public places throughout Hong Kong without the permission of the Lands Department and this Department, or in case of private land, without the permission of the owner or occupier. Every day, the staff of the Department will, in addition to patrolling the streets and removing unauthorized posters, take out prosecution action against any person found responsible for placing such posters.

Where a bill or poster is displayed on any private land or on any Government land, the bill or poster shall be maintained in a clean and tidy condition."

I don't really get it though. What's the difference between streets or public places and Government land?

Anyway, as long as we all get to exercise our democratic rights...

Before I could even start to put up two posters on the Wall, Lamma-Por and I were approached by a junior staff from FEHD Dept. trying to stop me and saying that it's not allowed. Obviously, Lands Dept., claiming ownership of the Wall they've just repainted, has instructed FEHD and our cleaning ladies to keep the wall clean every day!

I told the guy that we have direct permission from Chairman Chan. After a few minutes he gave in and let me put up my posters which were still up when we returned from town at night.

Today, there'll be a meeting between FEHD and the Rural Committee and they'll discuss this issue among many other topics. Let's see what the outcome will be, it can go either way, I think...

But I hope that the design contest that HAD and Chairman Chan agreed to is still on and we'll get to see some of the best designs from Lamma artists competing to decorate that wall, hopefully incorporating space for posters.

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If only the Lands Department were so active in reacting to businesses that illegally occupy public land for decades without any hindrance.

some rusty oil drums and styrofoam boxes that i brought to the attention of FEHD are still there, just a few meters from the wall, next to the seafood restaurant. Less offensive than messages on the wall, i suppose.

I've asked Jo of [url=http:///www.livinglamma.org]Living Lamma[/url] for an update:

"There has been much debate on the Welcome Wall. I'd like to give you a bit of background information and also let you know about the launch of a design competition to enhance the appearance of the wall.

The Welcome Wall was included in the booklet produced for the Stop the Mess! campaign, which contained 253 photographs of rubbish black spots, rusty railings, and other areas that had fallen into disrepair or become eyesores on Lamma. This booklet was prepared by Living Lamma and presented to different government departments in a series of meeting this year. Though the wall serves a valuable service, being a communications board for the community, it had fallen into disrepair and was in need of renovation.

It took several months to ascertain who should be responsible for the upkeep of the wall. The Home Affairs Department (HAD) has now taken charge. In fact, HAD is co-ordinating other government departments and is actively working its way through the the other photos in Living Lamma's booklet. The recent replacement or repainting of rusty railings and removal of rubbish on Tai Peng Hill are part of these efforts. I'm even told that the Water Services Department will soon be repainting their building in Yung Shue Long. Things are happening and we are really pleased so far with the response. It has taken a monumental effort, but we are now moving in the right direction.

Why is it so difficult to clean up things on Lamma? Like other places in the New Territories, the question of land ownership often gets in the way. For instance, in Tai Peng New Village, the government wants to put a hand railing on the stairs and the side of the path where there is a rather nasty drop. Unfortunately, about 5 metres of this path falls on private land and so government needs the permission of the licensee before they extend the fence along the most dangerous part of the path. Though government has written to the licensee, they have not received a response and therefore can only partially fence the path. The owner may be unaware of the situation, but the government officers are not empowered to take further action. In the same area, there is now a huge stockpile of green waste, which is too big to compost effectively and which has also been used as a dumping ground for other rubbish over time. Though government contractors have been responsible for depositing some of the green waste on private land, most likely unwittingly, (there is nothing anywhere to indicate the boundaries and the area concerned extends back from the bin area), the government cannot clean it up because it is private land. For the private land owner, there will be costs involved in clearing this pile of which he probably has no knowledge.

Living Lamma is trying to work with government and the local community to solve these problems. The response from the Rural Committee has been fantastic and we are now working with Chairman Chan to identify the right people to talk to and see what can be done. In the case of Tai Peng New Village, we will be speaking to the village heads and trying to take further steps to contact the licensee. We will also offer assistance to help private land owners who have waste on their land that they want to clear.

And now back to the issue of the wall.
First there was the question of ownership to overcome, which after months of no-one seeming to know the answer, HAD resolved by taking charge of the renovation. Then the Food and Environmental Hygiene Department (FEHD) had to come and clean it, which was when the notices were first removed and the wall was power sprayed. Contractors for HAD then repaired and painted it.

Living Lamma did not have any say over the colour. In fact, when the scaffolding first appeared, I was straight on the phone to HAD, thinking "Dear God, don't let them paint it pink!" I was told that the paint had already been ordered and that it was "monochrome." A couple of phone calls later and we had ascertained that indeed, monochrome meant grey, the colour of concrete.

But don't worry. The grey wall is a TEMPORARY measure. We have a document from HAD stating that:

"A further beautification works will be done and we shall invite the locals/Living Lamma to provide a draft painting design. Beautification works will commence right away upon the confirmation of the design."

In the meantime, I have been told repeatedly that residents are welcome to continue to post notices on the wall (and don't worry if a bit of paint comes off, it's temporary after all!)

So the next step is to invite all artists, architects, designers and landscapers (of any age) to take part in the design competition. Living Lamma is working with the Rural Committee to organise this and posters outlining the competition details within the next week or so.

We are also looking for a small committee of volunteers to help encourage people to participate and with general co-ordination. If anyone would like to help, please contact Jo Wilson at 2982 0920.
Details of the competition will, of course, be posted on the Welcome Wall and on Lamma.com.hk."<HR>

So who will be the first "volunteers" to decorate this grey wall with colourful and interesting posters? We need to check again in the next few days if this new explicit temporary permission has trickled down through the bureaucracy to our daily street (and wall) cleaners already?

Let's make sure that the competition designs will leave enough space for posters in the future.

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I walked past 'Democracy/Community Wall' this morning... and I had to laugh. The blank grey wall was still there,... but notices/info/posters are still everywhere, and opposite on the railings LOL I really did laugh.

And posting notices WILL continue. I know it's illegal. So what happens when people start getting arrested and fined money for doing this? Then people will stop living here when the community spirit is gone.

And when the community spirit is gone,.. people will move elsewhere,

Then landlords will lose a whole lot of money, as will businesses.

As for the Powers that Be concerned about the mess..... well.. what can I say. (work contracts spring to mind of course- how much tax payers money is going to be spent beautifying a bloody grey wall???)

Shabby wall, yes sometimes. But as previously mentioned, the MAIN paths on this island consist of just one big bloody construction site - fair enough sewage works being done and speeding VVS. But the path is STILL full of other peoples rubbish, etc... etc.. and stagnant pools of water along the path,.. so 'posters' to me on the wall seems rather irrelevant in the scheme of things.

It was a 'Community' Wall.

An early poster asked if it was OK to 'take down the posters in the name of Democracy'...... and my answer is yes.

It would be rather petty though.

Maybe we need a 'volunteer monitor' for the wall???? Just a suggestion?!

I put up a poster last year for a 'charity benefit' which would benefit Lamma. When I got to the wall it was shabby... some posters had faded, some had fallen off, etc... etc... and there was no space.

What did I do? I took down the shabby, outdated and peeling posters off the wall. It was quite simple really.

So I am happy to be a 'wall monitor'......... I will help ensure (along with others in our community) to make sure it doesn't get too shabby.

And I won't charge you or the tax payer any money for this service!!!

I know I know.. it will take a whole 5 minutes of my time, but I'm willing to do it for free

As for the attitude of people who hate the wall and the posters,.. please could you instead conserve your energy to clean up the rest of the path?

Have to agree with your statement.

LG.. you having a pissy week? Looked like a bit of an attack on your moderator, and hey (as far as I know he's a volunteer... who I disagree with many a time, but he is also a part of Lamma.com)

Yes, let's stay on topic......... (you have asked all forum members to do this in the past... so now It's my turn LOL

If you are pissed off with your moderator... then just send him a PM... I do

Well, you've obviously misunderstood the point I was trying to make. Why would I be pissed off about a moderator at all? You won't catch me saying not nice things about any of them as they're all very much appreciated and have autonomy within their forums.

So, who's going to start filling the "Welcome Wall" with posters again, now that they have promised not to remove them anymore?

A wall monitor removing only outdated posters and old posters is definitely an interesting idea...

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Actually I thought we were getting a bit too complimentary to each other -- people may talk,.



Anyone who puts up one should remove any obviously outdated ones nearby. It helps with the prominence of the new posters anyway.

That's what I do on the rare occasions I've put up posters.
I also took down my old posters when they were obsolete, so I didn't get phone calls for something I'd already sold.

Living Lamma's website says:

"Living Lamma was set up in response to the continual degradation of Lamma’s natural beauty and village character.

"Poured concrete, ugly metal fences, deliberate dumping of construction waste on agricultural land and rubbish black spots have all contributed to the deterioration of the island.

"We cannot allow this to continue. If you care about Lamma, please join us."

Now every time I walk by the wall and the opposite fence, my eyes are drawn to the posters on the fence. Each note tells something about life on Lamma. Never do I set my eyes on the livid wall.

We welcome visitors to Lamma by our hospitality or indifference. Slogans and billboards welcome customers, not friends.

i agree.
For as long as i can remember (13 years) the wall served as a free, uncensored space where people could post messages to buy/sell, advertise services and events, look for lost items, call people to take part in political rallies and protests, etc.

People still need this space, that is why they started using fences, and other walls.

Apparently we are still allowed to use the gray wall, once the FEHD staff get the message that they should not remove posters and messages.

I liked the organic nature of the "democracy wall", as its appearance would change every time someone added a message. New dominant colours would emerge everyday, and some of the posters were pretty good. It was the subject of so many pictures taken by visitors, who obviously weren't allowed to try anything like this in their public estates, or posh residential towers.
Parts of the wall looked like an abstract canvas, with peeling bits of paper, layers of different colours etc. And the great thing was that this unintentional aesthetic effect was created effortlessly by anyone who posted messages or removed them.

It did convey an idea of freedom, and its messiness was nothing compared to the mess caused by construction work and people who dump all sort of rubbish on each others' doorsteps. I certainly wouldn't like a sanitized message board like the ones you see in supermarkets or malls, where all the messages have to comply with a certain format and are removed after an expiry date.

Ideas for the future of the wall? Let's have a debate.

Personally i think its best use is one that grows organically out of people's needs, accessible to all those who want to use it, whenever they want to, without any restrictions. Those who walk past it are always free to take down any posters or messages that they deem offensive. That's the beauty of it. You can post or remove messages. No need for a moderator. I don't remember any real problems caused by the lack of a wall moderator.

Well, it looks like the Democracy Wall is free once again, at least for now!

My posters are still up, for one week now, but just a few other people have dared to follow the Fun Day's and my example so far. Go ahead, decorate this grey wall with your colourful, informative and fun posters!

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And now it's stripped bare again.