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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:13 pm 
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Press release received from HK Electric today:

HK Electric to conduct feasibility on offshore wind farm.

Plans for a wind farm of 40 big windturbines - generating 3 times as much power each as Lamma Winds - offshore, 3.5 km southwest of Lamma Island. See home page today, July 3.

Opinions?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:22 pm 
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Lamma-Gung {L_WROTE}:
Opinions?


I changed your title as "For Lamma" implies on Lamma itself, which gave me rather a shock till I read the PR release.

3.5 km offshore is fine by me. They can be used to make an artificial reef.
I'd expected them to put them on the mainland. But having them close by saves transmission costs and hassles with bureaucrats and greedy landowners.

But as always, the devil is in the details.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:46 pm 
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Does this mean free airconditioning (of sorts) for Lamma residents. Will they generate much of a breeze for us? Its really nice of them to think of our comfort.
But what about the birds?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:41 am 
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I wouldn't assume this was all good, what about the impact on marine life especially during the reclamation ??? These waters are home to both pink dolphins and finless porpoises, a group of us witnessed a dolphin in the waters about a mile east of Lamma on Sunday. I suppose hk electric will hire some pseudo enviromentalist consultant for big bucks to provide a spurious OK. Much as they did for previous projects.

Bear in mind the fact that HK elcectric must now have ample capacity with the new gas fired power station coming online soon. This is just another scam to make more money out of the scheme of control thinly disguised as an enviromental project.

Incidentally, I wonder have hong Kong Electric ever tipped an ounce of ash into that massive ash lagoon. I talked to someone very high up in the power industry in Hong Kong a few years ago and they told me that the ash is a very marketable product and gets sold for three times the price of coal per ton.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:22 am 
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Incidentally, Hong Kong Electric has a plant factor of 40% for the year 2005(census and statistics dept), whereas the Western world generally operates on a plant factor of 50 % (UK 53%) (report from the 19th world energy congress). This means that HKEC is currently in a position of being roughly 10 % overcapacity and this is not including he new gas fired power station on Lamma, or proposed wind farm which eould increase capacity by 3 %.

Does this mean they are going to shut down some of the old plant and reduce their asset base, which would mean according to the scheme of control they couldn'tcharge as much. Fat chance.


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 Post subject: impact on wildlife
PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 11:37 am 
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the rspb wrote a report on the impact of a norwegian wind farm on the eagle population there. I hope HK Electric will be conducting proper studies on the impact of 40 turbines on the local bird population........hmmm

http://www.rspb.org.uk/policy/windfarms/eaglestrike.asp

Wind farm strikes at eagle stronghold

A key population of Europe's largest eagle has been significantly reduced by a wind farm.

Only one white-tailed eagle is expected to fledge from the wind farm site on the bird's former stronghold of Smøla, a set of islands about six miles (ten kilometres) off the north-west Norwegian coast.

Turbine blades have killed nine of the birds in the last ten months including all three chicks that fledged last year.

The number of young has crashed from at least ten each year before the wind farm was built, with numbers outside the wind farm falling as well - there are no breeding pairs within one kilometre of the turbines.

In 1989, BirdLife International made Smøla an Important Bird Area because it had one of the highest densities of white-tailed eagles in the world.

Scientists now fear that wind farms planned for the rest of Norway - there are more than 100 proposals - could replicate the impact on wildlife of Smøla. Norway is the most important country in the world for white-tailed eagles.

Dr Rowena Langston, Senior Research Biologist at the RSPB said, 'Smøla is demonstrating the damage that can be caused by a wind farm in the wrong location. The RSPB strongly supports renewable energies including wind, but the deaths of adult birds and the three young born last year make the prospects for white-tailed eagles on the island look bleak.

The Norwegian government ignored warnings of the consequences for wildlife of the Smøla wind farm proposal before it was built.

'There are other wind farms close to Smøla which are putting more eagles in jeopardy too. The deaths of these birds show just how inadequate existing decision-making processes are for new technologies such as wind farms. Developers and governments should be taking note; these types of impact must be properly considered and acted upon when proposals are first made to avoid the unnecessary losses we are witnessing on Smøla.'

Researchers are now running weekly checks for dead birds at the 68-turbine Smøla site and pressure is mounting on the Norwegian government to improve environmental assessments, both from conservationists and the wind farm operator, Statkraft.

At the same time, the RSPB is backing a new four-year study at the site by the Norwegian Institute for Nature Research (NINA) at the site to assess the effects of turbines on swans and wading birds such as golden plover, dunlin and whimbrel, and on the ability of white-tailed eagles to adapt to the wind farm.

Arne Follestad, a Research Scientist at NINA said, We know little of the cumulative effects of the many wind farms planned for Norway, so it is important to study their long term effects on the eagle population both on Smøla and elsewhere.'

The RSPB believes climate change poses the greatest long-term threat to wildlife and strongly supports the development of renewable energy including wind farms, so long as they are well sited.

The Norwegian government ignored warnings of the consequences for wildlife of the Smøla wind farm proposal before it was built. Dr Mark Avery, Conservation Director at the RSPB said, 'The eagles' deaths confirm the fears we expressed at that time and show how devastating a poorly sited wind farm can be.

'Wind farms can and should be helping us tackle climate change and can do so without affecting important wildlife sites. It is vital now that environmental impact assessments take full account of conservationists' advice and that those assessments help form the backbone of future decisions on wind farm applications.'

Source: RSPB Public Relations department
23 June 2006


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 Post subject: Wind farms
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:40 pm 
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Submitted by Peter Berry:

"Wind farms, even at 5% of supply, will only have a minor overall effect on air quality and they will produce very expensive electricity. This will is not necessarily all bad as it should encourage people to use less of the stuff. The snag is that it makes very little difference to the well off and hurts those that can least afford the extra financial burden.

"All is not lost though. If electrify is charged as for water i.e. a free (or well below cost) basic supply for each household (say using the average for low cost housing estates) with a middle band at cost price and an upper band at a penalty rate (perhaps two levels for electricity) for those who wish to use as much as they like, then the extra financial burden on the poorest members of our community will not be made to suffer the consequences. The penalty rate(s) will be pretty darned stiff though if even the projected changes to the Scheme of Control are applied."

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:14 am 
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{L_IMAGE}

Locations of the 40 proposed wind turbines (red dots). Click on map to enlarge.

Story in Lamma-zine on the home page (July 11, 2006)...

The project profile for the wind farm is online now on the EPD website:

Project Profile for the Development of a 100MW Offshore Wind Farm

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:05 pm 
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Someone in government is really up-to-date! The Lamma breakwater (see map) was part of the port development project off Lantau that died a death about the turn of the century if not before. It gives one such confidence in the abilities of those who govern our lives.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:25 am 
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tjungarayi {L_WROTE}:
Does this mean free airconditioning (of sorts) for Lamma residents. Will they generate much of a breeze for us?

Wind turbines reduce wind speed.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:32 pm 
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Kevin Sinclair, SCMP {L_WROTE}:
Wednesday, July 19, 2006

Getting energy from the wind is a great idea. What a pity that in the Hong Kong context it is totally unrealistic. To make any significant contribution to our ever-increasing hunger for electricity we would virtually need whirling blades atop every building in the city. It's never going to work.

The concept is appealing. Stick up a few windmills and, hey presto!, all your energy needs are solved. It's a notion that has hard-core environmentalists trembling with excitement, until they take a harder look at the cold facts and hard figures. Then they discover it is totally unviable.

Proposals by both power companies to build wind farms out to sea is a public relations sham. These would create a visual ecological nightmare that would also be a crippling financial disaster, all in return for a phoney cuddle-me payoff to blind idealism. Examine the facts. CLP Power envisages sticking a bunch of wind towers off the Ninepin Islands. Blades would whirl prettily over the waves and undersea cables would carry ashore electricity for about 75,000 small households.

Nonsense. First of all, they have to build the towers. This would mean an armada of barges and floating cranes moored there for months so massive underwater excavations could be dug into the living seabed.

From huge concrete platforms, towers would rise at least 25 metres to reach the surface. Then they have to soar another 80 metres higher to give the blades room to spin above stormy waves.

The structures would be incredibly expensive. The tiny amount of power generated would not pay for them in a half century. So who is going to foot the bill? Two guesses, and you are right first time. It is Mr Average Hongkonger, who will dig deep to pay for this feel-good frippery.

Under the sweetheart deal government extends to CLP Power, they build something and then they charge customers higher power rates to pay for it. So why not invest in a wind farm? It's not going to cost them anything.

Cynics, and there are many of them, point out the crazed inconsistencies of the proposals. Government, naturally, sits back with its collective mind in neutral and seems to totally accept the grossly inaccurate claims of the two power combines.

More facts; wind and solar power, while fine in theory, simply are not sufficiently effective to provide power to a major city. The CLP Power proposal is for 60 towers spread over about 15 sq km off the Ninepins.

According to the power company, each turbine would provide power sufficient for 1,660 homes of four people, a claim which engineers describe as "laughably optimistic".

The towers would rise from the seabed and tower the height of a 20-storey building above the waves. Each would have three blades measuring 45 metres.

Environmentalists claim the CLP Power plans are cynical tokenism and a vain bid to be seen as green.

Paul Etherington, who runs the eco-tourism firm of Kayak and Hike in Sai Kung, dreads the thought of what futuristic windmills could do to the horizons. He is seeking views from nature lovers on the project; almost all feedback he has received has been scathing.

"I am very passionate about this area," says the man who has organised adventure tours for more than a decade. "This wind-farm project is a big, expensive mistake under the cloak of renewable energy."

He believes scientific studies which say Hong Kong would need 2,000 massive windmills to generate a mere 5 per cent of the city's electricity needs.

"These would cover 5,000 hectares," Mr Etherington says. "That's roughly four times the area of Lamma Island! Whether on land or sea, wind towers would be a scab on the landscape."

Building a wind-farm on any Hong Kong location would be as costly as it is senseless. It would make only the most minor dent in the battle against air pollution, much of which is caused by coal-powered electricity generators.

The size of any turbine farm planned for Hong Kong would make a derisory contribution to our overall power demand. It is mere window dressing, has no economic viability whatsoever and totally lacks common sense.

I believe the only permanent solution is for Hong Kong to deal directly with the Guangdong government and private investors, be they CLP Power or others prepared to put in the money, and construct a chain of four or five more nuclear power stations over the border.

That's a genuine solution, not a cute smokescreen designed to blind us with unworkable feel-good technology.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:58 pm 
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I agree !!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:21 am 
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Nuclear energy is considerably less cost-effective than wind power. A more practical approach would be to immediately upgrade coal-fired power stations to use the latest in liquified bed combustion and deep carbon storage technologies.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:40 am 
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Bromgrev {L_WROTE}:
Nuclear energy is considerably less cost-effective than wind power. A more practical approach would be to immediately upgrade coal-fired power stations to use the latest in liquified bed combustion and deep carbon storage technologies.


Is that right? I don't think that's right if you consider set up costs and maintenance. And even when we have any winds to speak of like typhoons or strong monsoons the turbines are 'switched off' to protect them from damage.

Anyone for tidal power?

Geothermal power?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:53 am 
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Nuclear power looks good, but the economics are hugely fuzzy. There is often a large hidden subsidy, eg for military reasons; and a huge but basically unknown cost for decommissioning. Also a huge unknown risk of disaster. Windpower however has most of its costs up front. But as elsewhere mentioned, it just doesn't have the capacity. I don't think geothermal is viable here, this isn't a volcanic area, fortunately.

The biggest, fastest impact would be to cut consumption; Donald has made a small start on this with his 25.5 degrees campaign, but much more needs to be done in the form of building standards to make more efficient use of power.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:53 am 
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Why don't we have them installed inside Legco?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:07 pm 
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At the end of the day, I would rather take visual pollution over air pollution, no one ever died from an ugly sight but up to 2000 deaths in HK per year are caused by air pollution.

The proposed wind turbines will be sited quite far off shore from lamma it seems (3.5kms?) and therefore unlikely to be very visible, that's if they are even sited here, at this stage its only a feasibiliyt study anyway and there is an alternate site at the Nine Pin islands.

We should be more worried about NOT investing in renewable energy because the majority of the air pollution in Hong Kong is generated by our power stations, even a 5% reduction in the amount of coal that HK Electric burns would make a difference to our air quality. CLP is also investigating the possibility of developing their own wind farm to again (hopefully) reduce their coal usage by about 5%.

The following info is from 'Clean the Air'
Energy - Air Conditioning
One-third of the power we use in Hong Kong is for air conditioning.
Raising the thermostat to 25.5 degrees, just 3 degrees from 22.5 Celsius can save 10% of the power we use for aircon.
If we also use energy efficient products (EMSD has a labelling system), we, the community, can save 5% of the power consumption immediately, with corresponding reduction in emissions and a saving of about $400 million per year.

Taking only the major emission sources located in Hong Kong, their emission shares would be as follows.

The energy sector accounts for
. 86% of the SO2,
. 54% of the NOx and
. 35% of the RSP emitted by all local sources. "

Its quite sobering to learn that although HK Electric has only 30% of the market share it generates twice the amount of pollution that CLP does, because CLP generates power from nuclear, gas and coal whereas HK E generates theirs from coal (some gas generation from 2006).

The power companies have a complicated scheme of arrangement that allows them a rate of return on their power generation investment, the rate of return allowed on renewable energy production is lower than they earn on their conventional sources. The Government has set very low targets for sustainable energy production in HK, I believe in the order of 2% by 2012, so the fact that the power companies are willing to exceed that figure for a lower rate of return deserves support.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:10 pm 
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ChaBo {L_WROTE}:
Why don't we have them installed inside Legco?

I don't think there's enough wind speed. A heat-exchange system might work, as the air in there is very hot. :twisted:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:24 pm 
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Alan {L_WROTE}:
The biggest, fastest impact would be to cut consumption; Donald has made a small start on this with his 25.5 degrees campaign, but much more needs to be done in the form of building standards to make more efficient use of power.

That's quite true, of course. Just banning the sale of old-fashioned lightbulbs and forcing manufacturers to stop making electronic equipment with 'stand by' would make a huge difference. That requires more than local political will, though, so it won't happen.

As for air conditioning, new high-rise buildings should hardly need it. Unfortunately, especially in Hong Kong, the building industry is notoriously conservative (alright, they're thick) and is rarely even aware of alternative ways of building. It's not even an economic argument, really, just a question of applying technology and knowledge which is already widely available.

Take photovoltaics and green roofs, for example. They may not be a panacea, but there is no reason why they shouldn't be a standard feature on every building in Hong Kong, old or new. What else are you going to use your roof for? The cost is negligible compared to the income from the building. Many European cities have strict requirements for new builds to install either green roofs and solar panels. If it's applied across the board, developers can't complain of copetitive disadvantage.

Photovoltaics can also be incorporated in shade-systems on windows. Why pull the blinds in your office when you can close your solar-panelled shutters and help power your aircon at the same time?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:09 pm 
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And "Bromgrev" makes valid points as well about energy efficient building and good design, however he answered his own question in a way "Many European cities have strict requirements for new builds to install either green roofs and solar panels"

The Government has not imposed any similar standards here and that's why 99% of new building don't have any of the things mentioned, roof gardens, solar panels to provide part of the building lighting etc etc, A handful of developers are incorparting some energy efficencies into their designs because they realise they can save money in the operation of the building.

Its not rocket science but things like double glazing (good for soundproofing too) insulation, energy efficient lighting can easily be incorporated into builidng design, the government could give concessions to encourage developers too, but hang on a second this is the governemnt that has made it voluntary to "switch off engines when idling" and that permits most franchised buses to burn diesel with a higher sulpher content and needs another 2 years to start thinking about how to tackle our pollution problem. Right!

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