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Environmentally friendly VV's
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Author:  rudlfax [ Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Environmentally friendly VV's
Hello all,

since most people reading this forum will live on lamma, i suppose, that all of you had the experience already that a VV passed your way, and you had to stop in your conversation with a fellow due to the noise, and maybe also you started winking with your hand quickly in order to drive the 'fumes' out of your nostrils. Well, in that case this question might find your interest.

How can we get all the VV's on lamma to run on electricity (using electro motors) rather than on gasoline?

It seems as if Hong Kong as an entity discovers a growing concern about the environment, and one thing that causes smog severaly is car traffic. Now it is nice that cars are forbidden on Lamma, however, allowing the surely necessary VV transport system has also created some free time traffic, observable especially on sundays. Who ever experienced for instance China Mainland City Suzhou with all the elektro bikes used in Inner City, will have realized how nice it is when such a bike passes by with hardly any noise at all (sometimes you even might be almost driven over, since you didn't hear it approaching), but also the possibility to breath freely even though there is busy traffic all around you.

There are three points to consider, for one the regulation part, then the realization part, and last but not least the technical expertise - now this, dear reader, is where your input might proof essential.

For the regulation part, to press forward such a development, and once reached, to keep the state, usually the best way is, when there is some kind of regulation enforcing it. The Question is now though, what is the best way to approach the authorities (and what is required) and which part of the authorities will feel responsible and also willing to participate in such a project. What other institutions could be willing to participate?

For the realization part, the worst case that could happen to such a project is having the population (or part of it - the VV owners) of Lamma standing against the whole idea. So what could be a promising way to get them 'on board', what would be their requirements to take part?

For the technical expertise, is it possible to upgrade an VV to an electro vehicle? Who produces them, are there offers already, if not do the producers see other options? Who would do the upgrading, what would it cost (cost-benefit-analysis)? What are the properties of an E-VV (speed, engine output, etc.)?

I imagine that it could be possible to get the authorities to take over the financial aspect of the project or at least part of it. For a city that is proud on its clean environment, and grows concerned about the increasing amount of air pollution, this could be a small symbol, where they can show: 'hey, we are doing something...'. Think you get what i'm aiming at. Well, for Lamma, the advantages are quite clear, less noise. But further than that, it could have an advantage for the local tourism business, since such things come really great in advertisements nowadays. Do i need to elaborate on how the enviroment benefits from that?

Well, i would be glad, if some people are willing to share their knowledge with me, but also if we can discuss Pros and Cons rightaway. So, thanks for reading this and i'm looking forward to your reply.
Author:  Alan [ Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
The downside would be that silent VVs would be more dangerous on the shared road/footpaths than noisy ones. At least we can hear them coming now.

Environmentally, the ferries probably produce a thousand times as much damage as the dozen or so VVs.
Author:  tjungarayi [ Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
Obviously if electric VV's were cheaper thats what you would see on the roads. Its not hard to work out that the fossil fuel VVs are the cheapest option.

Until you can persuade small business, local government and HK government that it is in the long term interests of all the stakeholders to cut down pollution there will be no action. Government tax cuts or similar approaches, If there was a will to do something might be an option.

If the silence is a problem, make it compulsory for all vvs to play the ring trilogy by Wagner or Hotel California by the Eagles which seems so popular in these parts.

Its not hard if there is a will!
Author:  Yogesh [ Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
tjungarayi {L_WROTE}:
If the silence is a problem, make it compulsory for all vvs to play the ring trilogy by Wagner or Hotel California by the Eagles which seems so popular in these parts.


O dear, that's very bad. You are introducing muzak on Lamma by doing so. More annoying than those click sounds you'd get from those lame digital cameras.
Author:  tjungarayi [ Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hotel California is a very nice song - would you prefer Smoke on the Water or Stairway to Heaven.
We haven't got muzak on Lamma yet. It would be quite a novelty having environmentally friendly green VVs with muzak - the novelty of this would increase those gob smacked, gawking Hong Kong yuppie bread eating tourists. Even more tourists - wouldn't that be nice. Eco tourism. Bring back the green turtles etc etc.
Author:  rudlfax [ Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
hmm, music playing VV's sounds tempting, but wasnt really what i had in mind. For the noise as accident prevention, for one i surely dont need prevention from an accident 8 am on a sunday, also i think its rather a question of getting the VV's to drive slower and 'considerate', but that'd be another topic worth an discussion.


edit//

To the point of the ferries, yes, thats certainly true, but the ferry doesnt pass by me as often, also this means dealing with a big company, which certainly needs other tactics and strategies. Maybe sometimes its better to start of small to have reached something in the end, rather than failing spectacular :)
Author:  rudlfax [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:33 am ]
Post subject: 
tjungarayi {L_WROTE}:
Obviously if electric VV's were cheaper thats what you would see on the roads. Its not hard to work out that the fossil fuel VVs are the cheapest option.

Until you can persuade small business, local government and HK government that it is in the long term interests of all the stakeholders to cut down pollution there will be no action. Government tax cuts or similar approaches, If there was a will to do something might be an option.

Its not hard if there is a will!


The first point of your argument isn't necessarily true. Even if it is with current production standards cheaper to implement a gasoline driven motor, it might be just the cheapest option because it is the only available. On the other hand shifting frame regulations can cause also a change in production costs (for instance shifting from manual labour to automated production caused by higher demand).

Also you need to look on the end user and his costs maintaining the vehicle, and other variable costs, and there is where the user could in fact save money, regardless the higher buying costs. Thats where an cost-benefit-analysis would be needed, sure :)

Your second point, exactly what i tried to say with my questions, thus the question is not if we need a shift in regulation and cooperating shareholders, but my question is rather how can We/I achieve that its gonna happen, where can supporters be found in these groups.
Author:  tjungarayi [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:35 am ]
Post subject: 
Someone (not me) should organise a meeting of all small business on lamma to promote the use of electric vv's. An advertising blitz heralding lamma's 'green move' with a small monetary donation and volunteer effort to defray some of the costs. Coordination of business strategy towards lamma tourism would benefit all stakeholders, increase the bottom line at the same time promoting and modelling Lamma as a green community. (apart from the power station that is)
To coin Pericles phrase, lamma could be an education to the rest of Hong Kong.
i still think muzak playing VV's would get lots of press and save many accidents.
Author:  Lamma-Gung [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:11 am ]
Post subject: 
Interesting ideas, but the only company on Lamma I could imagine being even remotely interested in supporting this initiative would be HK Electric, with some publicity and maybe even with a bit of financing.

Talk to their PR people, at least they'll listen, unlike most local VV drivers and shop/restaurant owners. It would be interesting to raise this as a discussion point a the next monthly informal dinner of the local Chinese business owners. I haven't attended any of those myself in quite some time, but I can just imagine the howls of ridicule greeting such a "green" suggestion from this friendly but pretty conservative group.

But this discussion is surely interesting enough to bring it to a wider readership on the home page of this site, as a Lamma-zine story, very soon...
Author:  tjungarayi [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:30 am ]
Post subject: 
My thoughts were '..off the cuff' so to speak.

I haven't the time nor inclination to pursue such an enterprise as I do not intend spending my life here and i don't really care much about Hong Kong's future.

But if there is a will, it usually triumphs, as someone I dare not mention once said.

If there was a will and people really cared then it would happen. Unfortunately, the green movement has not matured enough in this part of the world like it has in Europe and other post industrial societies. Green consciousness is slowly stirring in these parts as the pollution gets worse and ideas and technology from outside are assimilated. This is not to say that the USA, the second largest emitter of CO2 after China should not be doing more!

Anyway, the raison detre for my initial thoughts were to make a green move attractive for Lamma business knowing that making more money is their primary aim. i.e - killing two birds with one stone.
Author:  marcus_schuetz [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:  VV construction
The electrical VV sound like a good idea. Just the question how to exchange a fleet and make this attractive to the owners and drivers. Just "environmental protection" might be not enough there. Also, you would need to look carefully at the charging and usage times etc. But such an introduction would be an interesting project.

But even staying with the current Kawasaki engines in some cases there is room for improvment. Just look at the exhaust pipes and you know what I mean.

A more serious problem the VVs have, in terms of construction, is the open front wheels which are not covered. In case of an accident with a child, for example, this is very dangerous. Sure, reasonable and safe driving can reduce the risk of accidents. But this is not the ideal construction of the front part of the vehicle. A serial car would never get a permit with such a structure.
Author:  rudlfax [ Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:36 am ]
Post subject: 
@tjungarayi: yes, a meeting must take place somewhen, and i have no problem with spending some time into it, however, i got the feeling its a bit early, since i'm missing the facts. Facts meaning also being able to tell VV drivers that they would indeed save money, which i hope, but i dont know for certain.

@Lamma-Gung: HK Electric is certainly promising indeed, but also here some facts and numbers would be needed. Its one thing to join in on a project thats all worked out already, another to get the idea and to have to work out the details by people you pay. Same for the informal meeting, certainly it will be hard to convince people by just saying 'oh, you know, it's a great idea'. I definitely would be grateful for the Lamma-zine story, especially if it could raise the above mentioned questions.

@marcus_schuetz: I think it wouldn't be necessary to exchange the whole fleet, but it should be possible to upgrade the existing vehicles. Environmental Protection sadly isn't a sufficient argument in most cases, and has to be seen as a welcome side effect. Thats why i went from noise to smelling first, and didn't concentrate on environment right away. This idea will only work, if the people involved will realize some sort of benefit, and no raise in costs. Thats why a cost-benefit analysis will be essential, but of course a VV-driver wants to know as well, that he will still be driving that and that fast and he will be able to carry that much load. The open front wheel is an issue too, i see your point, and i could imagine that both concerns could be combined during the course. Since there needs to be a meeting somewhen with the VV-drivers, it might make sense to use the chance and also adress this matter.

@to all: Thanks for your input so far. I am certain creating a link between the local and the expat inhabitants of Lamma will be one of the most difficult parts of the whole idea. I speak a little mandarin, but no cantonese at all yet, and most of the locals will not speak sufficient english to discuss such matters. It would be easiest if both the left and the right hand pull on the rope that leads to the authorities, if you get my meaning. Question would be though, are there local people that are known to be open to such ideas?
Author:  rudlfax [ Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
I enquired about the VV's today. The information i got domplicates matters a little more than i had hoped for. VV's are not produced by a single company, but are build by different mechanics, seemingly in a selfmade way.

Thus i will need someone that speaks cantonese, who can enquire if one of them maybe thought about implementing an electrical motor, or at least measurements and specs of the most used gasoline motor in VV's. Having latter information would allow in turn to contact producers of E-motors and inquire there, whether they got an E-motor with comparable measures and performance or not. Any volunteers? :)
Author:  Lamma-Gung [ Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:26 am ]
Post subject: 
rudlfax, let me connect you with a VV driver who speaks fluent English, studied overseas and might be open to your idea. I'll PM you his contacts. I'd come along to meet him in person, if you like.
Author:  rudlfax [ Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
thx a lot, sent you a message back, so i suggest that the people that watched this thread so far check in a few days for some updates, as i hope there will be some :)
Author:  rudlfax [ Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Hello fellow lammaites
Sadly the meeting with the VV driver never worked out, since he never sticked to promises he made, since then i have been pretty busy writing up my PhD, why i didnt follow this path any further.

Lately i have been asked though as to what has happened to my idea. I spoke to my father about it, as he was an electro engineer and he came to the following conclusion:

Even though an electrical motor is more efficient in fuel use compared to the gasoline motors for the general purpose of VV's (e.g. for slow travel with heavy loads) - if you want a electro VV that equals the so far existing by speed and travel distance, you would need such a large battery package, that the possible saving due to going by electricity might be eaten up due to the additional battery weight. If you choose less heavy batteries, this has a direct effect onto the travel distance, meaning that the battery would need to be recharged more than one time per day (assuming constant use of the VV). Due to this complications I haven't come up with an idea so far, as to how sell this idea to the locals, since i expect that they only would switch when they actually could save money and do not have more effort than they have now.

The idea stays in my mind, but i'm still not sure about how to tackle the problem. If you have any idea, please let me know.
Author:  shapogung [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  another solution
The reason they are noisy is because they have no mufflers. Since they are also exempt from the RTO, Traffic Regs cannot be enforced.

A complaint to the District Officer would be a start.
Author:  nobby [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:35 am ]
Post subject: 
thye do have mufflers, look underneath. possibly they're uding two stroke engines which are noisier than 4 stroke. If they had no muffler they'd be much louder.
Author:  shapogung [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  mufflers
Maybe they need more muffling. Would it be feasible to ask for their engines to be enclosed?

I remember years ago, the compressors they used with jack hammers used to be the open type - very noisy. But they are now required to have an encased engine - it makes a big difference.

Or maybe we could encourage them to use lawnmower tractors instead of the jerry rigged things they use at the minute. They would agree though, only if we could get government to give them a grant.
Author:  BOB [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
Electric or not, maybe the VV drivers should get a proper driving license first?
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