Amnesty says the IOC is now complicit in the human rights abuses :

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=17708

The CCP is responsible for 250,000 political prisoners in the lao gai, 8,000 executions p.a, and the illegal occupation of Tibet since 1950. China is not a free society and handing the CCP a propaganda victory contributes to further human rights abuses.

Perhaps Stalin should have been allowed to host the games, or Pol Pot.

The athletes themselves are now questioning how they can compete in an atmosphere of repression. The French and German teams are clarifying regulations and proposing to carry out protests. Journalists are concerned that they will not be able to report events freely. Politicians, including the Secretary General of the U.N. are boycotting the propaganda events.

Given that China itself boycotted the games from 1948 till 1965 it seems somewhat implausible that they should now argue that sport must be kept separate from politics.

In fact, every opportunity to oppose tyranny is a good opportunity. So it's full steam ahead for maximum impact until we see an end to executions - access to prisons by international monitors such as the Red Cross and Red Crescent - measures to ensure fair trials - an end to torture - genuine negotiations between the Chinese and Tibetan Governments - and a timetable for transition to democracy.

Let's chuck that torch into the harbour!

The Hong Kong Torch Relay will take place on 2 May 2008 and will last 8 hours. The Olympic flame will be carried by 120 torchbearers to places throughout the territory on Hong Kong Island, in Kowloon and the New Territories to spread the Olympic spirit by running or by using various modes of transportation such as cars, dragon boat and launch. The route will pass through major landmarks and scenic spots of Hong Kong to showcase Hong Kong’s unique charisma and beautiful scenery to the world.

- This course has now been truncated so as to deny HK people opportunities for protest.

Meanwhile, the Chinese Communist Party will bus in people to "demonstrate" in favour of the Beijing Olympics - those who participate do so out of fear, ignorance, a mis-placed sense of patriotism/nationalism, or for money...

Here's an article about those paid to "demonstrate" by the Chinese Communist Party :

China salaries overseas Chinese for anti-Tibetan protests
Phayul[Saturday, April 19, 2008 21:25]
By Phurbu Thinley

The Global Human Rights Torch Relay, scheduled to pass through 37 countries, arrived in Minnesota (MN) State on April 16 on its America leg of the ongoing relay. The torch arrived after passing through New York earlier on Sunday. The organisers of the torch relay hope to draw attention to human rights concerns in Tibet, as well as the Chinese government's persecution of the Falun Gong, Buddhists, rights advocates and others.

In Minnesota, the relay kicked off from the State Capitol and arrived at the University of Minnesota Coffman Front Plaza, covering 11 miles, for the main event of the torch relay. Coalition to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong, China Democracy Movement, MN Tibetan community, Falun Dafa Twin Cities Club, Burmese representative, Genocide Intervene were among others taking part in the torch relay advocating: “The Olympics and crimes against humanity cannot coexist in China”.

Upon reaching the University of Minnesota, Tenzin Namlha, a good friend of mine who now resides in MN, was taken aback seeing an unusually large contingent of supposedly pro-China campaigners protesting side by side, apparently to disrupt the relay’s event. Tenzin, who recently moved to US from Dharamsala, the seat of the Tibetan Government-in-exile, was among some 300 odd members of MN Tibetan community, who took a day off from work on Wednesday, to take part in the peaceful human rights torch relay.

What shocked Tenzin most was when a Chinese student carrying a pro-China banner approached him, in the midst of event, and asked him how much he got to take part in it; evidently with no idea of the whole torch relay event.

“What happened is that there were lots of pro-Chinese, and one of them came to me and asks me how much I got,” Tenzin wrote in our usual online chat. “He thought I might be one of them (Chinese),” Tenzin went on.

“And then I asked him back (the same question) and he said he got 350 dollars (US) from the Chinese government to protest against us (Tibetans and human rights activists). He specifically told us that lots of students, almost all of them were paid to protest against Tibetans,” he added.

During his brief interaction with the outwardly frank Chinese student, Tenzin said he learned that pro-Chinese activists at the San Francisco leg of Olympic torch relay were all paid to protest against pro-Tibet campaigners. “And it’s not just yesterday, they were paid to go to protest against us in San Francisco too,” Tenzin wrote in our chat on Wednesday.

“The pro-Chinese in San Francisco were all paid to protest against us man,” he wrote in his casual chat language.

Interestingly, what happened later proved even more unexpected for Tenzin.

“So I asked him ‘why are you protesting, I mean do you have any idea about what’s going on’” Tenzin went on with his narration.

“That Chinese guy told me he didn’t know what’s going on,” Tenzin wrote saying he literally had to explain to his Chinese counterpart in “detail” about what had been “going on in Tibet” and that the “Human Rights Torch Relay” is “not talking about Tibet at all”.

According to Tenzin, on hearing the explanation, the bemused ‘Chinese guy’ later put his banner down to join Tibetans and other groups to denounce Chinese government of its human rights record.

“We were all talking about human rights in China and then he put his banner down and joined our group!” Tenzin exclaimed, adding “It’s really funny man”.

Tenzin further wrote: “He doesn’t even know why he is protesting. And it’s not just him; he said most of the students who are pro-Chinese don’t know why they are protesting”.

When asked how they get money from Chinese Government, Tenzin said he was told by the Chinese stranger that one of the student’s or a group’s leaders would take money from Chinese embassy or consulates from respective locations and then pay them to individuals.

香港市民支援愛國民主運動聯合會
HONG KONG ALLIANCE IN SUPPORT OF PATRIOTIC DEMOCRATIC MOVEMENTS OF CHINA

香港九龍旺角彌敦道618號好望角大廈8字樓 電話TEL：(852)27826111　圖文傳真 FAX：(852)27706083

8/F, GOOD HOPE BUILDING, 618 NATHAN ROAD, KOWLOON, HONG KONG

電子郵箱 E-MAIL: contact@alliance.org.hk　　電腦網頁 Homepage: http://www.alliance.org.hk

捐款戶口：（恒生銀行）262-273-733-001；（匯豐銀行）580-108-934-001





各友好團體及人士：

2001年2月，北京市負責申辦奧運的副市長劉敬民表示：申辦奧運是實現和發展人權的過程，由北京舉辦2008年奧運會有助於改善中國的人權；任何人都有權參與自己關注的事，中國人渴望舉辦奧運，這就是人權。當時，北京申奧代表團的最高層官員、前中國副總理李嵐清也曾表示：在北京舉辦奧運會，不僅有利於中國人民，也有利於傳播奧運精神，以及促進世界的和平及發展。奧運精神強調的是瞭解、友誼、和平、對文化差異的容忍和理解，要使「體育活動為人的和諧發展服務，以促進一個維護人的尊嚴的和平社會的發展」（《奧林匹克憲章》第二條）。但時至今日，中國政府不但沒有兌現申辦奧運時改善人權、傳播奧運精神上的承諾，反而不斷打壓維權人士、維權律師和捍衛自身合法權益的平民百姓。

今年是北京舉辦奧運會和「六四」事件十九周年。支聯會提出「同一世界、同一人權，同一夢想、平反六四」的口號，敦促中央政府落實承諾，主辦符合人權的奧運會，並實現香港市民和全球關注中國民主人權人士的夢想──平反六四。

支聯會邀請了「國殤之柱」作者丹麥雕塑家高志活（Jens Galschiot）來港，於奧運倒數一百天（4月30日，星期三，上午11時），聯同香港大學學生會和支聯會成員在香港大學黃克競樓平台將「國殤之柱」翻新和髹成橙色，表達關注中國人權。我們將於4月27日（星期日）舉行記者會，交代一系列活動、洗擦和維修前勘察「國殤之柱」，詳情如下──

日期：４月２７日（星期日）

時間：下午３時

地點：香港大學黃克競樓平台「國殤之柱」前

支聯會響應中央政府當年申辦奧運時，改善人權狀況的承諾，計劃於5月2日舉行和平示威，並與北京奧運傳送火炬同步傳遞人權火炬。支聯會不會妨礙奧運火炬的傳遞，現正與警方商議有關安排。我們希望「同一世界．同一人權，同一夢想．平反六四」得到實現，同時祝願北京奧運能在符合人權標準下順利舉行。詳情稍後公布。

　　上述活動，誠邀抽空出席參與。若有查詢，請致電27826111與秘書處聯絡。

支聯會秘書處敬約

2008年4月24日

「六四」十九周年紀念活動

—4月30日(三，奧運倒數100天)上午11時

將「國殤之柱」髹成橙色

—5月2日(五)傳遞「人權火炬」

—5月2日-23日(五)「解讀中國」系列講座

—5月份「巡迴各區宣傳」
—5月4日(日)「毋忘六四」十九公里長跑

—5月25日(日)「民主風箏行動」

—5月30日和6月4日「平反六四」聯署廣告

—6月1日(日)「愛國民主大遊行」

—6月4日(三)「燭光悼念集會」





***********


香港市民支援愛國民主運動聯合會

HONG KONG ALLIANCE IN SUPPORT OF PATRIOTIC DEMOCRATIC MOVEMENTS OF CHINA

香港九龍旺角彌敦道618號好望角大廈8字樓 電話TEL：(852)27826111　圖文傳真 FAX：(852)27706083

8/F, GOOD HOPE BUILDING, 618 NATHAN ROAD, KOWLOON, HONG KONG

電子郵箱 E-MAIL: contact@alliance.org.hk　　電腦網頁 Homepage: http://www.alliance.org.hk

捐款戶口：（恒生銀行）262-273-733-001；（匯豐銀行）580-108-934-001



人權奧運‧橙色奧運

促進改善中國人權　將「國殤之柱」髹成橙色　傳送人權火炬

二零零八年四月二十七日

2001年2月，北京市負責申辦奧運的副市長劉敬民表示：申辦奧運是實現和發展人權的過程，由北京舉辦2008年奧運會有助於改善中國的人權；任何人都有權參與自己關注的事，中國人渴望舉辦奧運，這就是人權。當時，北京申奧代表團的最高層官員、前中國副總理李嵐清也曾表示：在北京舉辦奧運會，不僅有利於中國人民，也有利於傳播奧運精神，以及促進世界的和平及發展。奧運精神強調的是瞭解、友誼、和平、對文化差異的容忍和理解，要使「體育活動為人的和諧發展服務，以促進一個維護人的尊嚴的和平社會的發展」（《奧林匹克憲章》第二條）。

中國成功申辦奧運和宣稱將改善中國人權狀況，我們曾有期望。但時至今日，中國政府不但沒有兌現申辦奧運時改善人權、傳播奧運精神上的承諾，反而不斷打壓維權人士、維權律師和捍衛自身合法權益的平民百姓。由最近的西藏事件，以及對失地農民、入城民工、拒遷市民、上訪人士、退役軍人、維權律師和知識分子等的打壓、迫害、拘捕、判刑等等的鎮壓暴行，一直沒有停止過。下崗工人楊春林為黑龍江失地農民爭取權益，於去年6月發起「不要奧運要人權」的簽名運動，收集了上萬個失地農民和下崗工人的簽名聯署，於今年3月24日被以「煽動顛覆國家政權罪」判刑5年。異見人士胡佳因發表五篇文章和兩篇訪問稿，於


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My top 10 reasons for switching off from the Beijing games:

1. Child slavery, once again proven, (after the Shanxi coal mines) but now the PSB / government call the Police liars and ask them to tone down the story.
2. Sports grounds used for public executions. That's the Olympic spirit! 375 to die during the sports. or, 700 right after it.
3. Child labourers being sold on to, or sold into, brothels.
4. 'One country one system' abuse of HK. What happened to our basic law for peaceful demonstration against such single-minded shite?
5. PRC entry visa changes, denied at first, then admitted by HK and its master weeks later. Time to get your investment out and switch off.
6. Piracy - they will copy YOU let alone anything you bring in.
7. US$1,528 billion (or US$2 trillion if you add on gold reserves) and a measly US$400,000 offered in aid their partners in crime -Burma.
8. Nail houses - need I say more? Basic lack of any human rights for anyone when you cant even keep your own home because the State says that economic development is more impiortant than your family/life.
9. CCTV - how many times can the average mainlander watch a 'leader' sit there day in day out nodding as some foreign suit comes in saying time and time again that they are not a legit government and have to improve BASIC human rights. They nod, shake hands on signing a half billion arms deal and bring in the next one. That is all that is on CCTV because they can't show anything else -- its not allowed.
10. The People of China - I don't know if reading is harder in Chinese than Roman script but I doubt it. But why do people on a 12 hour train journey only have a phone for 'reading'? Why no book or newspaper? (ok, I guess I can answer that one if they are going to have to read about a state leader meeting an arms seller etc...) But nobody reads in China, they just stare at mobile phones whilst changing their ring tone. When the Chinese people realize that the west thinks they are 'brainwashed by propoganda' they may also realise that that is because they have nothing to read. As they clearly dont.

The flame of the One Dream one Spirit thingy is out of the spotlight and will make its jolly way through the 30 provinces (having missed Taiwan entirely) and China can heave a huge sigh of relif that its no longer going to continue to ridicule the Beijing event for the next 3 months.

I just doubt that anyone will give a toss when it does get to Beijing to then see the battle of the pharemaceutical companies in the Steroid Fest '08.


p.s - Can London simply have a sporting Olympics rather than a medal fight / prove who we think we are. I think the spirit is lost and taken over by Coca-Cola, Legova, Samsung etc... I will not be buying any of these products from here on.

c.c - Boris, Rogge, Seb, Hu, Dalai Lama, (list truncated due to size)

yeah right. uhh , what next then

_________________
You don't want to see my Avatar

switch off then. Its boring anyway. Who gives a fuck which national wins?

New Games:

1. Beijing road crossing (UK)
2. China queue jumping (France)
3. Spitting / hawking (UAE)
4. Squat dumping (India)
5. Foreigner fleccing (China)
6. Child / Grandma selling (China)
7. Concrete pouring (HK)
8. Grovelling to China (IOC)
9. Torch relay (Tibet)
10. TV ratings (China)

The Olympics should not promote nationalism. Bring on the Tower of Babel!
I have refused to watch the Olympics for some time. I can still admire the fastest person over a hundred metres or witness the loneliness of the long distance runner. But having to sit through the nationalist editing, partisan to whatever country you are domiciled to at the time and having to tolerate the frenzied shouting of commentators (reminiscent of sabre rattling jingoism) is ridiculous and somewhat anachronistic. Whatever happened to the 21st century. Has not humanity the technology to communicate new horizons for humanity. Why the reliance on nationalism and religion. They are both way past their use by dates.
Upon reflection it all probably has to do with loneliness and alienation. Many cannot be independent. There seems to be a need to belong so that one does not stand out as too much of an individual. A non understanding of the processess and dynamics of group and individual behaviour leaves many in a state of confusion and incomprehension. Then comes the easy way out by seeking rationalisation. Nationalism, God king and country if you will or religion, the belief in an afterlife, offer packaged slick answers to cognitive dissonance.
But back to the Olympics. Which country is going to get the most medals. Probably that country that throws a dissproportionate amount of money into sport than it does on health, education and charity. It would be interesting to discover how much developed countries spend on their Olympic hopefuls compared to how much they have helped some children in Burma or elsewhere.

_________________
Age. Fac ut gaudeam

I echo that sentiment. But they are both opiates.

China: Olympics Media Freedom Commitments Violated

IOC Ignores Beijing’s Broken Pledges and Denial of Access


Hong Kong, July 7 – The Chinese government continues to block and threaten foreign journalists despite repeated promises to lift media freedom restrictions ahead of the Olympic Games, Human Rights Watch said in a new report released today.

The Chinese government has prohibited local Chinese-language media from publishing unflattering news ahead of the Games, leaving foreign media as the only source of factual reporting about a wide range of crucial issues in China today. But systematic surveillance, obstruction, intimidation of sources, and pressure on local assistants are hobbling foreign correspondents’ efforts to pursue investigative stories.

“Proponents and critics of the Beijing Games agreed on one thing – that fewer restrictions for international media and scrutiny of China at this time would constitute progress,” said Sophie Richardson, Asia Advocacy Director for Human Rights Watch. “Yet the Chinese government – with the help of the International Olympic Committee – has done its best to impede progress.”

The 71-page report, “China’s Forbidden Zones: Shutting the Media out of Tibet and Other ‘Sensitive’ Stories,”draws on more than 60 interviews with correspondents in China between December 2007 and June 2008. It documents how foreign correspondents and their sources continue to face intimidation and obstruction by government officials or their proxies when they pursue stories that can embarrass the authorities, expose official wrongdoing, or document social unrest.

Some journalists have suffered serious threats to their lives or safety. Most recently, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has declined to investigate death threats made against more than 10 correspondents and their family members in March and April 2008. In September 2007, senior Reuters correspondent Chris Buckley was beaten and detained by plainclothes thugs after interviewing rural citizens who had come to Beijing seeking redress for abuses committed by local authorities who were held at an illegal detention facility in Beijing. The following month, a European television news journalist suffered similar treatment while trying to report on unrest in Hebei province.

China is also threatening to restrict entry to news organizations that do not toe the line. In November 2007, a foreign cable news network that had publicly complained about previous harassment and detention by Anhui province officials was informed by a Chinese foreign ministry official that its accreditation to cover the Olympic Games was in jeopardy. A number of news organizations have reported difficulties obtaining visas and accreditation in advance of the Games, and several have begun to publicly voice concerns about restricted access to venues such as Tiananmen Square.

“These constraints limit what the estimated 25,000 correspondents going to China for the Olympics can cover,” said Richardson. “Journalists who try to report objectively on the complex realities of modern China are facing real risks, despite the government’s commitments to give them greater freedom.”

In 2001, the Chinese government promised the International Olympic Committee (IOC) that it would respect free expression in the run-up to the Beijing Games. In May 2007, the government announced new freedoms for accredited foreign journalists in the “Service Guide for Foreign Media” (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/05/31/china16029.htm). The temporary regulations, in effect from January 1, 2007 until October 17, 2008, allow foreign journalists to freely conduct interviews with any consenting Chinese organization or citizen. The regulations do not allow similar freedoms for Chinese journalists.

While some correspondents have noted improvements brought about by the new regulations, the majority say the regulations have done little to enable them to report on issues that government officials are determined to conceal. Those include high-level corruption, ethnic conflicts, social unrest, public health crises, and the workings of China’s large detention system, including prisons, labor camps, mental hospitals, and police stations.

For example, national and local authorities were unusually open to media coverage of their rapid responses following the May 12 earthquake in Sichuan. Yet as soon as the news turned to those authorities’ possible culpability for not doing more in advance to minimize damage, they reverted to more obstructionist tactics. On June 3, police forcibly dragged an Associated Press reporter and two photographers away from the scene of a protest by the parents of student victims. It remains unclear whether foreign correspondents will be able to report growing public demands for accountability.

In Tibetan areas, the site of the biggest government crackdown since the June 1989 Tiananmen Massacre, news remains difficult to report. Although the government announced on June 26 that it would reopen Tibet to foreign journalists, it has specified that “previous procedures” will apply. Those “previous procedures” were an onerous application process that, according to one veteran foreign correspondent, made going to Tibet “virtually impossible.” In addition, the fear of retribution for talking to foreign journalists remains so high that Tibetans are unlikely to be willing to approach them with important information. That means correspondents are unlikely to be able to verify the origins of the protests or determine how many were ultimately killed, injured, or arrested.

Officials have also sought to undermine foreign journalists by intimidating their more vulnerable Chinese sources. In several cases, correspondents told Human Rights Watch that officials interrogating them focused on obtaining the names, mobile phone numbers and locations of their local sources. One source for a foreign television journalist was beaten so badly that he required hospitalization; after his release, he was placed under house arrest. Other foreign correspondents spoke of sources’ subsequently being fired from their jobs or being threatened – sometimes with criminal charges – by local authorities.

“In recent months foreign journalists have continued to provide important coverage of serious issues in China,” said Richardson. “But neither they nor their sources should have to endure abuses ranging from harassment to death threats in order to do so, especially in light of the rights ostensibly granted by the temporary regulations.”

Article 51 of the Olympic Charter obliges the IOC to take “all necessary steps in order to ensure the fullest coverage by the different media and the widest possible audience in the world for the Olympic Games.”

Despite Beijing’s documented record of ignored pledges and denial of access, the International Olympic Committee has not publicly criticized the Chinese government’s violations of media freedom pledges. Indeed, some IOC representatives have publicly praised China’s media freedom. In April 2008, while foreign journalists were barred from Tibet and some were receiving death threats amidst a state media-driven vilification of “western media bias,” the head of the IOC press commission, Kevan Gosper, praised the “open-mindedness” of the Chinese government in “supporting the interests of ... international journalists.”

“The corrosive effects of the violations of Olympics-related media freedom pledges will linger long after the last athletes have left Beijing,” Richardson said. “It’s in the interest of the IOC and the foreign heads of state who will attend the Beijing Olympics to try to ensure that media freedom is a lasting legacy of the Games rather than a broken promise.”

_________________
"Non calor sed umor est qui nobis incommodat!"

China targets Mongolians in quiet pre-Games crackdown

Mon Jul 7, 2008 9:52pm EDT

By Ben Blanchard

HOHHOT, China (Reuters) - In China's pre-Olympics crackdown on dissent two communities have received considerable global attention -- the Tibetans and the Muslim Uighurs of Xinjiang.

But dissidents and rights groups say the government is targeting another ethnic group as well, Mongolians, largely out of the eye of media and without attracting as much international publicity.

Though China's northern region of Inner Mongolia has not experienced the scale of protests and unrest that have hit Xinjiang, and especially Tibet, the government has been quietly detaining people accused of separatism and harassing activists.

"Recently the authorities have been getting increasingly paranoid," Enhebatu Togochog of the New York-based Southern Mongolian Human Rights Information Centre told Reuters.

"They are confiscating whatever they think are weapons including Mongolian knives which are sold in Mongolian stores solely as artwork," he added.

"Many Mongols traveling to Beijing have been treated as criminal suspects and are not allowed to stay in hotels in Beijing."

In March, police arrested Naranbilig, who had campaigned against Han Chinese migration to Inner Mongolia, and placed him under house arrest, Togochog said. Two weeks prior to that another dissident, Tsebegjab, was also put under house arrest.

'WHITE TERROR'

Xinna, the wife of Inner Mongolia's best-known jailed dissident, Hada, told Reuters police had intensified surveillance on her and other activists in the run-up to the Beijing Olympics, which open on August 8.

"It's white terror," she said, sitting in a Mongolian tea house in regional capital Hohhot. "There's a lot of fear."

Hada was tried behind closed doors in 1996 and jailed for 15 years for separatism, spying and supporting the Southern Mongolian Democratic Alliance, which sought greater rights for ethnic Mongolians. He says the charges were trumped up.

Amnesty International considers Hada a prisoner of conscience and has expressed fears about his well-being.

Unlike the Tibetans, whose spiritual leader the Dalai Lama won a Nobel Peace prize for his work to promote his people's cause, and Rebiya Kadeer, the so-called "mother of the Uighur people", China's Mongolians have no such champion.

"People know of the Dalai Lama, but who do we have? Nobody knows about our problems," said Urasgaal, manager of a Mongolian craft shop in Hohhot which he says has been targeted by police raids looking for supposedly subversive materials.

Inner Mongolia is supposed to have a high degree of autonomy, but like Tibet and Xinjiang in the far west, Beijing keeps a tight rein on the region, fearing ethnic unrest in the country's strategic border areas.

Decades of migration by the dominant Han have made Chinese Mongolians a minority in their own land, officially comprising less than 20 percent of the almost 24 million population of Inner Mongolia.

China's treatment of its ethnic minorities has leapt into the limelight following anti-Chinese violence in Tibet in March and the pro-Tibet protests that have dogged the international leg of the Beijing Olympic torch relay.

Yet some Mongolians lament the lack of attention paid to them. "It's as though we have been forgotten by the world," said one soft-spoken Hohhot academic who asked not to be identified.

_________________
"Non calor sed umor est qui nobis incommodat!"

Well, let's say it's pretty easy to throw shit at China.
There's certainly plenty to complain about.

But then again.....

Do we ignore the fact that no country in the history of the world has ever supported 1.3 billion people?

Do we ignore the fact that China has progressed more in the past 30 years than probably any country in the history of the world?

Do we consider that control of a country the size of China needs a firm hand?

That perhaps China is progressing at the fastest pace possible without derailing?

The the west was no party playground during their early development and took a long time before they could be called decent and fair as a society. If that's ever possible.

That personal freedoms have increased immeasurably in the past ten years?

I'm a supporter of China, warts and all, as long as they keep improving.
Many ordinary Chinese people are the some of the kindest I've ever lived amongst. I see them smiling more today than I did 10 years ago.

Is that a good thing?
Or do we just concentrate on the shit?

When they stop improving I'll be a severe critic.

Shit? Would you care to point out some examples of this shit?

Or are you actually referring to criticism? Are there any particular criticisms that you find unreasonable?



I believe the Tibetan, Mongol and Uighur (are there any Manchus left?) people have patiently tried to suggest the Chinese a mutually beneficial solution to that "size problem".



I believe the exact point of the continued criticisms is that the CCP hasn't actually improved its attitude towards rule of law and human rights despite pledging to do so when it was awarded the olympics in 2001.

On the contrary, not only are many Chinese suffering from increased repression, but the neighbouring peoples (Tibetans, Mongols and Uighurs) are being collectively targeted by CCP's campaigns of fear and political re-education.

So, how do you measure China's continued improvement? Based on increased GNP or some other economic yardstick?

Are you saying that respecting of rule of law and internationally agreed human rights is somehow contrary to people's well-being and prevents them from having enough to eat?

_________________
"Non calor sed umor est qui nobis incommodat!"

What do I base it upon?

I've been visiting and living in China in 1986 and I have seen it improve dramatically since then. That is not to say I don't see problems and many of them.
My point is that China is improving, and dramatically when you consider the short period since the dark days of Mao.

I don't believe that anyone could possibly claim otherwise.
As I said that doesn't mean I make excuses for the serious problems that exist today.

America, for example, has also come a long way since the open slaughter of native Americans and slavery. Australia has come a long way in the 200 years since it was slaughtering Aborigines or other racial problems in it's more recent history. The U.K made a great leap forward when it stopped it's upper classes from buying slaves and shipping them to sugar plantations.

The point is that there is no magic switch to transform China from the days of Mao to a modern and far minded society and do it overnight. It was always going to be a struggle and a logistical nightmare.

When I arrived in 1986 the schools still had signs on the walls like "Beware of the foreigner" and "Don't look the foreigner in the eyes". There is absolutely no doubt that things have improved or that hey have a long way to go.

Do you not think things have improved since the days of Mao?

Do you honestly believe that freedom of speech has not improved in the past 10 years? Hell, I can see a huge difference in just the past five years. The amount of open criticism within government, on blogs, on T.V, on forums etc is growing annually. The people are slowly finding a voice, of that I'm sure.

Of course that voice is usually not in English and so not always visible to westerners.

I'm really happy to debate issues on China because I find it fascinating.
The first step always seems to be establishing the fact that China has improved. They remain culpable in many areas and I do not dispute that. They also get quite a lot of biased western press which often pisses them off I'm sure. The Tibet issue is one where I think they are hard done by in some areas. I mean life was no fairytale under the monks either. Read some of the first accounts of westerners to visit Tibet and it's quite an eye opener. There is still more improvement needed but they have managed to improve life expectancy from around 31 y/o under the monks to now about 67 y/o. They do now get an education and hospitals and food for their family's. It's not all bad.
Their riot did result in innocent deaths including three innocent teenagers burned alive which got little western press.

I feel we should congratulate what has been achieved and strongly encourage more rapid freedoms. That's my main point.

I'd still be interested in some examples of the unwarranted "shit" thrown at China that you had an issue with.

All international human rights groups, even the usually meek United Nations, have raised serious concerns about the increased levels of repression that the Chinese regime metes out at the non-Chinese "minorities" and anyone who dares to question the rule or decisions of the ruling Communist Party.

Does the end of increased average wealth and state power justify all possible means?

The living standard of the average "Homo Sovieticus" rose under the glorious rule of Stalin and the Soviet Communist Party. Did that general rise in living standards, as compared to the days of Czars and Russian serfdom, justify the tens of millions of deaths and decades of military occupation of non-Russian peoples?

In post-WWI Germany a certain A. Hitler managed to stage a coup d'etat, but his National-Socialist economic policies helped rescue millions of Germans from starvation while lifting Germany from post-war shambles into a major industrial power. Did that miraculous economic turnaround justify the persecution and indeed attempted genocide of many ethnically "non-Aryan" peoples, first within Germany and later in all German-occupied territories?

Were these above dictatorships justified in their militaristic pursuit of Lebensraum, and the persecution of the "uncivilized Unter-Menschen" (sub-humans) native to those occupied lands, simply because there was also an element of material progress involved, especially for the "ethnically and culturally superior" Master Race?

Wasn't the rationale of the 1930s Imperial Japan also to establish a "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" and bring modernisation and peace to the feudalistic, undeveloped and warlord-ridden China which also happened to be tearing itself apart in a brutal civil war?

Now, if we honestly evaluate the above military-political campaigns and find them to be colonial and genocidal in both essence and in deed, why on earth should we exempt Mao's communist army's annexation of China's historical neighbours from the same critique?

Perhaps China (and Tibet) might have been spared from the mindless violence, famines and the wholesale destruction of invaluable historical effects caused directly by the CCP if China had only allowed itself to be ruled by the "modernizers" of Imperial Japan?

But would the Chinese be happy under Imperial Japanese rule today if the Japanese had already ruled all of China for couple of generations and had no intention of leaving after the "liberation", if the vast majority of China's historical artifacts and buildings had been destroyed by the "liberators" (like Tibetan artifacts were melted for precious metals and used by Mao as foreign currency and virtually all monasteries were destroyed), if only half of all Chinese children finished few years of primary education and even that brief exposure to "education" was used by the foreign rulers to instill shame in one's native heritage, language and religion while glorifying the rulers' superior culture etc. ?

Of course not. So why then are the Chinese people pervasively indoctrinated through education and media (now also in Hong Kong) that China, through the Chinese Communist Party, "rightfully owns" China's historical neighbours and it is completely up to the "Chinese government" (aka the CCP) to execute, through CCP's military power, whatever colonialist and sinicization policies they wish in Tibet? The United Nations' principles on all peoples' right of self-determination notwithstanding.

So, under the current generation of CCP's politburo the ethnic Han-Chinese people are allowed and in some cases encouraged to speak up. But only as long as the issues they voice serve a wider nationalistic purpose, such as when some Chinese were allowed to call for the extermination of Tibetans after only being exposed to the CCP's very one-sided propaganda on the events (but not to the Tibetans' grievances) after the Tibet-wide demonstations that began in Lhasa on March 10.

It's okay to be patriotic, but that entails that one is able and willing to also see the dark side of one's country and its regime, and also willing to make some effort to correct the mistakes or indeed crimes that one's country is committing.

A nationalist, however, is someone who finds glory in whatever policies that make one's country seem more powerful, even if that includes brutal imperialism and colonization of one's neighbouring peoples or arbitrary silencing of domestic opposition.

The foreigners who lap up CCP's nationalistic propaganda (e.g. about Tibet) without engaging their critical faculties are a breed apart. They may suffer from cognitive dissonance, but having thrown one's financial, professional or personal lot in with the promise of China's rise (even under CCP's autocratic rule) helps immensely when it comes to downplaying or outright ignoring facts contradicting the official party gospel.

And then, unlike we might do in case of Stalin, Hitler or Tojo, it becomes comforting to judge the PRC not on the actual account of what they do to the underpriviledged or the non-Chinese occupied peoples but on the account of general improvement in the majority Han populations' living standards. Who cares about the 80,000 significant riots across China annually, the arbitrary rule by local CCP cadres, the rampant corruption, the severe pollution of water, air and soil, the increasingly pervasive surveillance state courtesy of modern technology, the dissolution of communist-era public healthcare service (poor as it was, but inclusive and affordable), the systematic colonization of neighbouring nations, the increased repression of those who dare to speak up against CCP's misrule...

The Chinese and especially the non-Chinese people under CCP's rule have no oversight over or recourse against CCP's policies so any examination is left to the international rights and environmental groups. The sole reason for this external oversight is to expose injustice and hope that something could be done to alleviate the problems. The CCP's own olympic pledges of improved governance and human rights situation set them with some internationally observed commitments and benchmarks but now it appears that they don't want to be held accountable over their promises.

The CCP naturally considers all oversight to be "shit". What was your reason to agree with them?

_________________
"Non calor sed umor est qui nobis incommodat!"

Not a very rational reply.

I am a fervent hater of the Mao period.
I have said on numerous occasions that I am not an apologist for China.

What you seem to have trouble with is discussing whether the situation has improved in the past 20 years. You seem to think that anyone that suggests it has, is some kind of radical that agrees with everything China does. No discussion of the how other western countries developed and their somewhat disgusting history.

You seem to have a one sided mindset when it comes to China.
Injustice is all over the world and not just in China.
Improvement is what is most important.
And yes, China has a LONG way to go.

By the way, I do not have any financial ties to China as you suggest.
I just happen to like most of the people I have met over the years.

Well maybe because it was a rephrasing of my question and not a reply per se.

I also apologize if it appeared that the viewpoints I presented were aimed directly at you.

I included the wider context simply because it is something people often, intentionally or unintentionally, ignore while concentrating merely on the benefits of China's centrally planned semi-capitalism.

Unfortunately your reply did include some rather unflattering personal assumptions about me. I hope we can keep the ad hominems out of this, at least until we know each other better.

Finally, I'd still like to understand what exactly you meant by "shit" in your first response to this thread.

_________________
"Non calor sed umor est qui nobis incommodat!"

Hi There...

No personal attack was intended I assure you. I can see you are passionate about the subject and nothing wrong with that at all. I'd rather discuss issues with someone like you any day. Who knows, maybe we may even get to some common ground.

What I meant by throwing shit at China is that in some ways I really do believe China is trying harder. While they are culpable in Tibet in many areas I think western press has offered a very one sided view of the situation. For example, they use every possible opportunity to portray all in a negative manner while building up the DL as the white knight. While I make no judgment on the DL personally, the period under the monks was far less than perfect. Articles I read on the first westerners to visit Tibet paint a very different picture to that generally pushed in the western media. As I said, life under the monks was no picnic but you will never read that in the western media. This is all a very delicate game of encouragement and pressure for change.

If you like I can find some of my reference materials written by westerners, not Han Chinese. You can also look at some early European maps depicting Tibet quite clearly as part of China. In fact I think all I have seen do. China at that time was basically run by warlords, monks and others, while the government had very tenuous control that drifted back and forth.

Of course the claim to Tibet by the monks can go on forever. The fact is that it is a done deal and China will never give up control. Any more so than the Americans will surrender the country to the Indians, or Israel move out for the Palestinians. These things happen in history and sometimes must be accepted. We can wish otherwise but sometimes wishes are futile. Alienating China will not help the situation, of that I'm sure.

You mention the thousands of demonstrations that now occur in China each year. That, is a more recent improvement in the country. People are less afraid to show their displeasure with government. It is a great example of how the people are finding their voices. The pace that it is happening is about right. The hard reality is that too fast may help the hard liners in Beijing to slow the process.

The government in Beijing is a battle between hard liners, moderates, and intellectuals. It is something that is evolving. It cannot simply be changed like the flick of a light switch. I would much rather see slow and steady than see China risk everything it has achieved so far.

For example, it really pisses me off seeing Mao held up as some kind of hero and the father of China. I hope that one day China will confront it's past under Mao and see him for what he was. For now, I sadly agree that at this point in the countries development, it would probably not be in the best interests of all concerned. In other words, I think we wish for the same things but disagree on the implementation and pace of change.

Dingo

Well your not alone here. I second your opinions.

I think the two words which need mentioning are 'cultural sensitivity'. The stance taken by Pit is more likely to start a war than create greater freedoms.

Whilst most people in the West have very quickly forgotten their colonial past, the same cannot be said of the victimised countries - who prickle at being lectured on human rights by representatives of nations that so recently invaded and occupied their territory. As a reminder - in order of culpability we have Japan, Britain (and its Dominions), Holland, Portugal, France, Spain, Germany, USA and Russia.

Nations, like people, will come around when they see that it is to their advantage - being lectured to, has the opposite effect.

I thouroughly agree shapogung...

""" Nations, like people, will come around when they see that it is to their advantage - being lectured to, has the opposite effect. """

Very true words indeed and never more true than when dealing with the Chinese.

China is a huge mix of over 50 ethnic groups. In most cases they seem to get along very well. I don't mean in the areas of power but in daily life. I have never heard a single racist comment from a Chinese person I have known over the years. Not one. I find they are all in all, very racially tolerant. I have no doubt racists exist in China or that they are very think on the ground.

Now what was the name of that Buddhist sect that is shunned by the current DL. I heard they also live in exile but follow a slightly different teaching and have complained of being persecuted by the DL's group. I mean persecuted by missing out on donated funds, schooling etc. Anyone know any more about it?

Anyway, Tibet will never go anywhere but with China.
I will not happen, of that I'm sure.
In a perfect world I would like to see them have more autonomy and freedom.

In fact I' like to see us all have more freedom.
Hell at my age it;d be nice to be able to cross the road by myself and where I want without being fined. I mean they told me in primary school I was old enough. I can do it in China....at my own peril of course.

The question is how to make a less than perfect situation better.
I think that is happening and I think China is progressing, just not at the pace that everyone would like.

I wonder if it ever does......

Can we pay you two to lecture us down the pub? Because, my oh my, you are both soooooo clever...

Sure...can you pay in RMB though. Those bloody HKD are becoming worthless........