exposed! haha. (I didn't mean thaqt way Allan )

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Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
----- Margaret Mead

What a load of TWOT this development is. If you look at the plan the Sea Walls are in water 20M deep and more than a mile long. The cost would be prohibitive - at a guess the thing will be another scam - like cyberport- with a lot of residential housing for sale and ABSOLutely no BONUS for HONG KONG in terms of "International Yacht Racing HUB, etc ".

Please let us know who to contact in the 'whatsit authority" so I can send in my objections to this bunch of TWOT?"

I've split this topic into two as the "almost completed" Lammarina/Lamma-1 on Tannery Beach/Nga Kau Wan and the early-planning-stage The Baroque on Lamma in Tung O Wan are two very different projects with different concerns.
I'll open more forum discussions as soon as we know more about their other planned Lamma-based construction projects in Sok Kwu Wan and Mo Tat Wan.

Here's another question from the Living Lamma group that the developer has just answered:

Q 3: Land rights for The Baroque:
How could a private developer build on land that belongs to indigenous villagers in Tung O Wan? Does it mean that indigenous villagers have given up or transferred their property rights? How is that possible under the government's small house policy?

A: The lands for The Baroque projects are deserted and abandoned farm lands. We acquired the lands through legitimate purchases and obtained approval from Government for change of ‘land use’. Therefore, The Baroque is not to be built on residential lands of the indigenous villagers.<HR>
I've met tycoon Bobby Li only once so far, outside the abandoned Mo Tat Wan school, only shaking hands, saying hello and taking a picture, while he was sponsoring a Lamma book and the Sound Art festival in South Lamma last year. He's not confident in speaking English, unfortunately.

But it was easy to tell from the locals surrounding him that he seems to be kind of a celebrity in South Lamma, pretty popular especially with the people selling their formerly almost worthless/unwanted land to him, 3+ million sqft/28 hectares on Lamma so far, according to their website.

Some of the indigenous South Lammaites seem to be definitely looking forward to the "economic stimulus" and cash they hope The Baroque on Lamma might bring to their area, while others treasure their quiet, peaceful and simple life.

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What?
How is that even legal or possible?

If it were so easy to change "abandoned farm land" to "residential development" the construction around here would be even more insane than it is. As far as I know, the ONLY houses allowed to be built on Lamma (except for the Tannery development, on a former industrial site) are for "village housing", three-storey, 700 sq ft.

Either he hasn't got the rights he claims at all, or there have been some very irregular practices at the Lands Department.

That's why i asked the question... How could Wong King manage to obtain approval to build on farmland? Even indigenous villagers' applications are rejected.
Maybe that approval has not been granted, and that's why he approached the Development Bureau with such an ambitious scheme. A 6 (?!) star hotel in a place where there is no road access??? I can just imagine those high-flyers who stay at the Four Seasons spending a night on Lamma. International sailing events? What does Mr.Li know about sailing? The Yacht club organises races, and seems to have all the right international contacts. The whole project sounds like a smokescreen for just another ill-conceived residential complex that could go terribly wrong, like the Sea Ranch developed by Hutchison.

Is it the place where the turtles lay their eggs?

King - "We acquired the lands through legitimate purchases and obtained approval from Government for change of ‘land use’. "

I think maybe there is a mistake in the use of obtained.

They have not obtained any approval for change of use that is why they are trying to get support from the development opportunities office - then the lands department may agree to change the use.

Currently under the Outline Zoning Plan I think alot of the area is a "conservation" area and alot of it is "greenbelt"

The Tourism Commission and Home Affairs Bureau should be shamed for supporting such a waste of a precious natural resource. Such an action is definitive of their lack of vision.

Recent sightings on Lamma of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles have led to rampant speculation. What are these terrible terrapin heroes up to? In a rushed interview, freedom fighting turtle, Michelangelo, admitted he was pretty pissed to here that some developer was poised to drive his sea going green brethren from their ancestral homes. Looking pumped for battle he let loose the famous battle cry, "Kowabunga dudes! The Mutant Ninja Turtles gonna snap some King Wong butt!" Later he added that he wasn't at all impressed that King Wong, the Island Shredder, was naming his doomsday resort after the high artistic style of his own namesake, the great baroque painter Michelangelo. We shall see whether our four armored heroes can preserve the natural Lamma Island habitat!

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Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
----- Margaret Mead

Baroque painter Michelangelo? That's not THE Michelangelo but Michelangelo Merisi da Caravaggiio, also known as Caravaggio. Michelangelo is one of the two most influential and famous Renaissance artists, even a "contender for the title of the archetypal Renaissance man, along with his rival and fellow Italian Leonardo da Vinci."

Actually, all 4 artists that the Turtles are named after are very famous Renaissance artists, 3 of them contemporaries in Italy, around the year 1500, Donatello is early renaissance, mid 1400s. Baroque was the artistic style prevalent from the late 16th century to the early 18th century in Europe. I've admired quite a few of these original artworks during my early travelling days, exploring Italy.

Nice try, Tavis - especially Island "Shredder", from the Turtles movie - but no cigar in this case. But there should be many more Baroque links to pop culture trivia out there that you could exploit? Especially Baroque music should provide easy links, with Vivaldi, Bach and Handel as key composers.

Baroque architecture: are these general examples of how The Baroque might look like?

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You got me there. I thought Baroque was a subset of Renaissance. I guess I shouldn't have skipped so many of those Art History classes all those years ago!

O.K. - rewritten:

Recent sightings on Lamma of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles have led to rampant speculation. What are these terrible terrapin heroes up to? In a rushed interview, freedom fighting turtle, Michelangelo, admitted he was pretty pissed to here that some developer was poised to drive his sea going green brethren from their ancestral homes. Looking pumped for battle he let loose the famous battle cry, "Kowabunga dudes! The Mutant Ninja Turtles gonna snap some King Wong butt!" Later he added that he wasn't at all impressed that King Wong, the Island Shredder, was naming his doomsday resort after the high artistic style of the great painters who followed in the footsteps of his famous namesake, Renaissance painter Michelangelo. We shall see whether our four armored heroes can preserve the natural Lamma Island habitat!

_________________
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
----- Margaret Mead

Well, much better, and using these green Turtles as a symbol and logo to fight against development is a cute idea, but there's just one little problem with this approach, besides running into potential licensing conflicts.

Turtle Beach Sham Wan is the next major bay over to the Southwest from Shek Pai Wan where The Baroque is planned. There are some tall hills in-between the two bays and it looks very unlikely that well-known and strictly protected Turtle Beach would be affected by any of the construction. This would surely cause a firestorm of public opposition all over HK. The developer is not stupid and there'll be enough other opposition to deal with anyway.

The only way the turtles will be affected, according to Dr Andy from WWF, is "light sensitivity" as the turtles might be a bit shy to lay their eggs when they spot some lights, 500 metres away from their beach, beyond the hills in-between the beaches. Green Turtles seem to be very modest creatures, very unlike the boisterous Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

I'll take some more pictures of the bays from above if I make it up to Mt. Stenhouse again as planned over Easter. Maybe somebody could even do an Artist Impression of a baroque-style palace, eh, 6-star hotel, in this idyllic and all-rural bay, what a contrast!

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LG, are you the playing the role of 'devil's advocate'?

The 2 bays in question, Sham Wan (Turtle Bay) and Shel Pai Wan are joined by a valley that rises only a few metres (not sure of the exact measurement) above sea level. There are no hills separating the 2 bays. I'm no marine biologist but I find it hard to imagine that the massive construction project that I remember seeing drawings of (which have now disappeared from King Wong's website) would not seriously impact the whole marine ecology of the area. Am I incorrect in remembering that the development encroached into the valley joining these 2 bays?

I remember you having posted the artist's conception of the planned development here on Lamma.com. Could you please post the link to it?

_________________
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
----- Margaret Mead

Sham Wan is by far the prettiest beach and bay on Lamma. It's an easy 10-minute walk (if that) from the proposed development area to Sham Wan. Imagine the number of families and kids swamping Sham Wan in future if this thing goes ahead, not to mention water skiing, speed boats and pleasure junks. Goodbye turtles - but then they've probably gone already.

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Yes, obviously. It would be a very one-sided discussion otherwise, everybody opposed. In our RTHK radio discussion, the 2 moderators had to play Devil's Advocates as well, independent of their private views.

But this playing Devil's Advocate in here might be fun, Mr Moderator, and some facts could help, like that the turtles (1 single sighting in the last 4 years, according to Dr. Andy?) would hardly be affected by this. There are many better reasons to oppose (or support? ) this development, let's discuss them as well!

Despite numerous walks and climbs all over South Lamma, I've never actually been to Sham Wan beach, officially off-limits for several months of the year. Time for a little photo safari, if it's off-season right now?

Oh, just got this very fitting invitation on Facebook from Siuyu of GreenLammaGroup. Who's coming along?<HR>
Tung O is a beautiful beach on Lamma, yet often overlooked.
Before the possible vast development of that area, Green Lamma will organise a hiking trip to Tung O so you can immerse in the beauty of this gem on Lamma.

Date: 1 May 2010
Time: 0900-1600
Meeting time and place: 0900 at Hung Shing Yeh Beach
Hiking Route: Hung Shing Yeh Beach >Tin Hau Temple at Sok Kwu Wan> Tung O >Mo Tat Wan >Sok Kwu Wan >Yung Shu Wan

Activity: Volunteer guide will introduce the history and the ecology of Tung O
Please note: There is no restaurant but only a small store which sells simple snacks in Tung O. We recommend participants to bring drinking water and food with you.
Cost: Free
Registration and enquiry: greenlammagroup@yahoo.com.hk

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I totally agree that there are almost innumerable important reasons to seriously question this proposed development. And a thorough-going questioning is certainly needed. King Wong is not going to give up - in fact, I would say the odds are very much in favour of his eventual success with some slightly scaled down version of the last proposal.

You have pointed out that he appears to be very popular with the locals in the Mo Tat Wan, Shek Pai Wan and I suppose Sok U Wan areas. Most pragmatic working folk when asked to choose between bread and freedom or between bread and any other less than immediately relevant ideal like environmental protection, will choose bread. Of course he's popular with locals! An absolutely crucial element here will be for an education program, designed by people a helluv a lot more local than myself aimed at the most local of the locals. I think this is where a group like Green Lamma can make a big difference. King Wong knows the importance of public education as a means to gather support and that's why he put his money behind the book Lamma Story, which painted a picture of Lamma as an economically distressed backwater who's economy had been gutted by government regulations that had been geared to protect the environment from rampant industrial development. It's time for us to mount at least an equally effective education campaign that provides a more balanced view of the importance of environmental protection and sustainable community development.

And when it comes to King Wong loving Lamma Island, well - I can only guess, cause he aint speaking out around here much in public, but the Lamma he sees is surely a different shade of green than the one I see. All of his developments reek of elitism - they're posh, they're baroque, they're bloody expensive, they're exclusive and they dont appear to embody any basic principles of true community sustainability. The real Lamma community needs an exclusive yachting club like it needs a bloody hole in its head!

So, we need to rally all the forces at our disposal to resist this abomination. And it just so happens that it's necessary to appeal to people's emotions when your trying to get their attention. That's what the role of mascots is. That's why furry seals in Canada's arctic attract so much world-wide attention. In relation to all the facts and to the true injustices and actual incidents of violence against man and nature in the bigger picture, seals gotta be pretty low on the list. But look at all the attention they gather. Wise groups might use that to open the doors to education. It's not rational - it can be abused - but it seems to be the what works with masses of people. Mascots can draw attention to an issue and then all the other less sexy but even more important issues can be seen more closely.

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Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
----- Margaret Mead

Actually, that happens a lot on the Backchat show and I find it often very annoying and unfair.

When some businessman or bureaucrat refuses to participate, the "moderators" will challenge the people who did turn up to justify their positions.

But the "Devil's advocates" can't answer any questions put to them or be put on the spot to justify their position.

Similarly here you can ask people to explain why, say, this would be bad for the turtles. But we cannot ask you to explain just what he means when he says he has already "changed the land use". Or who is going to stay at this "6 star hotel"? Or why the hell he can't finish a single block of flats at the Tannery after 12 years? Or how he's going to finance this? Or what transport will be part of the development? A road to Sok Kwu Wan? Piers? Ferries? Disco Bay golf buggies?

Well, in my role as "Voluntary Devil's Advocate" in this discussion, let me try to answer all your questions after a lengthy discussion with three guys from the developers, including the General Manager, this afternoon, as part of another site visit & photo shoot in Lamma-1.

Well, actually the answers will make an informative Lamma-zine story very soon....

By the way, some of the developer guys read this forum, informing them of Lammaites' concerns and they seem even to be addressing some of them, to my surprise.

Here are some quick answers to your questions:
Not yet; tourists, sailing/yachting enthusiasts; to be finished in "a few months", interior end of April; not finalised yet; on-demand ferries to Aberdeen, similar to Lamma-1, plus improved local paths.

More concrete info, new site plans and an info video will become available after my upcoming Bobby Li interview shortly after Easter, I hope....

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Those aren't really answers to my questions, (I asked "why" the Tannery was taking 12 years, not "when" it would be finished) but that was my point, you can't, and shouldn't be expected to, be their spokesman. Are they too cowardly to speak for themselves? If not the boss himself, he surely has some staff who are capable of communicating with the public who are vitally concerned with what he plans to do to the place where we live without making the slightest attempt to communicate with us.

Anyway, it makes it easier just to decide he's simply a foolish developer who is in over his head, but should nevertheless be opposed because of the damage he will do in the process of trying to build his mini-DB.

As you can see from these pics I found in an old forum thread, The Baroque fills the entire valley between Sham Wan and Shek Pai Wan. These artists impressions are at least a year old and I remember they used to be on King Wong's site. King Wong's website now has no useful information or pictures pertaining to "The Baroque". A few snaps of sailing boats and pics of the area in its undeveloped state. In the absence of up-to-date information, we'll just have to rely on these old illustrations.

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Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
----- Margaret Mead

Lamma Gung, You have had the opportunity to meet with these developers on a number of occasions and I can imagine that you have gotten to see them in a positive light - they're just people like the rest of us And you must likely therefore be readily disposed to look for the reasons to support this development as well as to oppose it. I also am interested in discussing issues from a balanced perspective. One forum member has suggested (perhaps jokingly?) that The Baroque would take some development pressure off our end of the island. (I don't think it would because it would appeal to an entirely different market) Personally, I cannot think of any reasons to support The Baroque unless it was radically scaled down modified to embody true principles of sustainable community development. If it was a co-housing community that cared

quote taken from TheCo-housing Association of the United States website.
then I would support it.

Why is King Wong only talking to you Lamma Gung?
Is it because you control the only organ of community discussion? You control the best place available for community resistance to organise itself?
Obviously, they want you to spread whatever news they would like to disseminate to the local community.
But, they should hold meetings and press conferences that would be open to all of us. I agree totally with Allan that it's not fair to you nor is it fair to the rest of us that they beam only you up to their mothership for meetings.

_________________
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
----- Margaret Mead